A Jesus/Yeshua question

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Hanoch Young on August 27, 2009 at 8:26am

Hey Sandra -

Than you very mcuh for your reponse, I appreciate it. And I agree, I the numbers are small, but growing every day. Hang in there -- and thanks for posting those photos, you've got a lovely family - congratulations! :-)
Hanoch

Sandra Inglis said:

Shalom Hannoch,

I am not a group, only one person, I am willing to dialogue with Jews without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua, as I do not accept Jesus/Yeshua myself. I rejected Jesus/Yeshua when I came out of Christianity and I have no intention of turning back to him. I know of others who have come out of Christianity who have also rejected Jesus/Yeshua. As far as I know we are very few in number and most who have rejected Jesus/Yeshua have converted or are seeking to convert to Judaism.

Sandra.

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Permalink Reply by Web Hulon on August 27, 2009 at 10:37am

Shalom Hanoch,

As you know, Beth Lechem is not a group per se, but an Ephramite community, but we are more than willing to work and dialogue with Jews. To be completely honest, though, it seems that many Jewish groups that want to "work" with Ephramites or Hebrew Roots groups or Christians really just want funding from Ephramites and Hebrew Roots groups and Christians.

As to salvation, we don't really believe in personal salvation outside of a national salvation. We know that it is YHWH Himself that delivers Yisrael. How He chooses to accomplish this (ie. through a messiah or through miracles, or simply through teshuvah, learning, and obedience, or any combination of these or any other way) is His business.

We do believe that Yeshua functioned as a "mashiakh" in order to begin the re-gathering of the lost tribes. We understand that, according to Torah, redemption comes through a kinsman taking responsibility for his brother, or brothers in this case. I won't pretend to understand how exactly this worked in a spiritual way, but the physical proof is here now. Ephraim is waking up.

I think everyone would be better off if we could just accept the words of Yeshua when he said that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Yisrael. Judah hadn't been lost and he wasn't looking for them. I do think it would be great, however, if a few more of his Jewish kinsmen took up the call in this day and sought to find their lost brothers. I know there are a few looking, but too few in my opinion.

As to belief systems, we believe that living Torah is the right system. This would give us no general argument with most Jews. There may be some minor halacha issues, but that is the case even in most Jewish discussions. However I must confess that we too are guilty of wanting others to agree with us that Torah is the Heaven mandated belief system for Yisrael and eventually for all mankind. I do find it difficult to get anywhere with folks that reject or only partially accept Torah.

The fact that we are largely in agreement with Judah when it comes to what Torah is, and who Yeshua isn't, may make any discussions on these matters fairly useless. But working together in other areas could be quite profitable. We have tended to stay under the radar, learning and practicing and waiting on the proper season.

When we have revealed ourselves to Judah, they tend to be fascinated. Some become fast friends and others are more cautious. We can't blame them. Of course most want to know why we don't "just convert." But if Joseph becomes Judah, who will do Joseph's job? And unless the prophets are wrong, Joseph has a place, not only in the world to come, but in establishing the world to come.

I have found it interesting and sad that so many returning Ephramites place so much emphasis on being accepted by Judah. I believe that if we concentrate on being accepted by YHWH, the rest will all work out. A Torah lifestyle is as natural for my children as it is for most Jewish children because they are being raised in Torah. Why would Judah not accept Torah people, once the idolatries are gone?

The idea of "accepting Jews", however, sounds funny to me now days. What are going to do? Reject that which YHWH has chosen?

Web

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Permalink Reply by Isaac Mozeson on August 27, 2009 at 3:04pm

Yes, Hanoch, this need to "witness" is built-in.

The happy, secure kids in the playground could care less about strangers.

But the insecure playground bully must make everyone aware of him.

המיבן יבין

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Permalink Reply by Gina on August 27, 2009 at 9:04pm

Hanoch,
I would be interested in dialogue with jewish people without trying to convert. I'm not like that. I do have my belief system in place.I am just courious as to why you are asking this especailly including christians. What kind of projects are you talking about? I have found that it is very hard to get a jewish person to talk to a christian person about their way of life and what they believe and what their ways are. Just about their culture in general. I assume that the reverse of your question would also be respected. I'm not looking for a debate but to know and understand the people and their culture.

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Permalink Reply by Patty on August 27, 2009 at 10:08pm

Hey Hanoch! In my personal experience I have found that I can accept them, but they won't accept me. I don't ask/need them to even CONSIDER Yeshua's teachings, but they insist that I "drop" him - even though I refer to him as a Torah observant/teaching Jew. So in our relations, I avoid the issue. This has been norm. Occassionally I will encounter a Jewish person who accepts Yeshua as a prophet. And seeing what Christianity has done to Yeshua and his teachings, I really do understand this. It is only the very few that are willing and strong enough to be able to peel away the added mythology surrounding Yeshua and see his Torah teachings for what they were/are.

Blessings,
Patty

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Permalink Reply by Patty on August 27, 2009 at 10:23pm

Shalom Sandra,

I would like to ask that you might be able to consider the TRUE teaching of Yeshua APART from the mythology that was added, i.e. his Torah message - the Sermon on the Mount, which was actually a calling to a HIGHER observance of the Torah. I feel that many sincere, zealous folks like yourself have "thrown the baby out with the bathwater". You see, back then, storytelling was a VEHICLE for conveying a Truth. The problem is that "Churchianity" hasn't been able to separate Truth from Myth.

I totally understand your concern of "turning back to Yeshua", but this really isn't the case. There is nothing really to "turn back to" because you were both already there - he was a Torah observant/teaching Jew and it appears that you are as well. Perhaps what you refer to as a "turning back" is to the the superstitious belief in Yeshua as a "crucified savior-god".

I am not asking that you accept Yeshua, but rather that you understand and respect the fact that I DO. He is how I came to the Torah.

Love & Blessings,
Patty
Sandra Inglis said:

Shalom Hannoch,

I am not a group, only one person, I am willing to dialogue with Jews without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua, as I do not accept Jesus/Yeshua myself. I rejected Jesus/Yeshua when I came out of Christianity and I have no intention of turning back to him. I know of others who have come out of Christianity who have also rejected Jesus/Yeshua. As far as I know we are very few in number and most who have rejected Jesus/Yeshua have converted or are seeking to convert to Judaism.

Sandra.

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Permalink Reply by Patty on August 27, 2009 at 10:50pm

Shalom Isaac, is this a Torah teaching? I have read to the contrary:

Exod.22:21 You shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Lev. 19:34 But the stranger that dwells with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am YHWH your Elohim.

Lev.23:22 And when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not make clean riddance of the corners of your field when you reap, neither shall you gather any gleaning of your harvest: you shall leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the YHWH your Elohim.

Lev. 24:22 You shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am YHWH your Elohim.

In 1 Chron. 29, King David says:

[14] But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of you, and of your own have we given you.
[15] For we are strangers before you, and sojourners, as were all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is none abiding.
[16] O YHWH our Elohim, all this store that we have prepared to build you an house for your Holy Name comes of your hand, and is all your own.

There are so many more references to strangers and their comparison to Israel that one could become quite overwhelmed, so I would like to end with a New Testament reference to Abraham and his visitors:

Heb.13
[2] Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Blessings to all,
Patty


Isaac Mozeson said:

Yes, Hanoch, this need to "witness" is built-in.

The happy, secure kids in the playground could care less about strangers.

But the insecure playground bully must make everyone aware of him.

המיבן יבין

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Permalink Reply by Tova on August 28, 2009 at 12:44am

I am most open to working on projects together. It can only narrow the gap.

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Permalink Reply by Gina on August 28, 2009 at 3:32pm

Hanoch,
I just want you to know that I have the up most respect for the Jewish culture and my only agenda is to learn about Jewish people and their culture. If any Jewish person wants to know what my experiences have been in life then I am an open book and they are welcome to ask anything they want to know from me. I would love the oppertunity to have a dialogue with people that are jewish. Nehemiah and Keith said in their book "A Prayer To Our Father" that we can walk together on common ground. Lets find out what we have in common and lets go from there!

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Permalink Reply by Patty on August 29, 2009 at 11:09pm

Shalom Sandra! Thank you for your reply. I would like to discuss your reply on a point-by-point basis, if you will allow me. I SO do not expect you read all of this, but I need to reply.

Sandra: “I love you as a sister. I do respect you as a person. I understand what you are saying, but I can not agree with you concerning Yeshua.”

Patty: Thank you so much, it is an honor to be your sister. I am not asking anyone to “agree with me concerning Yeshua” but rather ACCEPT that he has been a viable path to Torah for me and many others, some of them on this group.

Sandra: “I do not believe I have thrown the baby out with the bath water. Yeshua is not a baby and the New Testament is not bath water.”

Patty: Whew, thanks for clearing this one up (smile).

Sandra: “If it were not for the New Testament writings no one would even know of Yeshua.”

Patty: And likewise, if it were not for Yeshua, and may I say the Pauline writings (even though I have many disputes with them, millions of people would not have a Torah in their homes today. The religion of 1st century Israel would have died.

Sandra: “To my knowledge he is a man from the tribe of Judah who may or may not have taught the truth according to Torah. No one really knows what he taught and those who say they do are just speculating. Their is no real proof of what he taught and what he did not teach.”

Patty: I agree. There are no first-hand witnesses here among us today; so to say he was Messiah OR, on the other hand, to say he was a “liar” is conjecture. But using the Torah as a measure, it is not difficult to separate his teachings from later additions, editing, etc.

Sandra: If you accept all of the New Testament teaching then he taught truth mixed with lies.”

Patty: According to your model, if you accept all of the Tanakh teaching then you accept truth mixed with “lies”. What is harder to believe – that a man was born of a virgin or that woman came from the rib of a man? That a man walked on water or that he lived in the belly of a whale for three days? That one rose from the dead or that an ass spoke? You see again, that myth and storytelling were methods of remembering and passing on Truth. People didn’t have books back then.

Sandra: “If you take the lies out of the New testament teaching then you are left with the Torah.

Patty: I agree.

Sandra: “The New Testament teaches that Yeshua is the only mediator between God and man and I believe this is the reason why so many will not let go of this man idol.”

Patty: The NT teaches that Yeshua was A mediator between God and man, not the only mediator. Consider his words: “I came not to call the righteous (those already following Torah), but the sinners to repentance”…and “They that are whole (those already following Torah) need not a physician, but they that are sick”. And also, “I came not but to the Lost Tribes of the House of Israel”.

Sandra: “The Tanakh tells us that there were many prophets of YeHoWaH and that YeHoWaH's Prophets are sent to warn Israel to turn from Idolatry and turn to and seek the will of YeHoWaH. I never learnt this by studying the New Testament nor by studying the teachings of Yeshua.

Patty: Then you never studied them correctly.

Sandra: All I ever learned by studying the New Testament was that Yeshua had done away with the Sabbath, that he was Lord of the Sabbath, that he was the son of the Father, that all come to the Father come through Yeshua. All of this teaching is against Torah. Seeking the truth in the Tanakh is what gave me an understanding of who YeHoWaH is and how we are to worship and serve Him only. The teachings of Yeshua never gave me this knowledge.

Patty: Then you were taught incorrectly. Yeshua said in Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Sandra: The Tanakh tells us that there were many prophets of YeHoWaH and that YeHoWaH's Prophets are sent to warn Israel to turn from Idolatry and turn to and seek the will of YeHoWaH. I never learnt this by studying the New Testament nor by studying the teachings of Yeshua.

Patty: One of Yeshua’s greatest messages was that he could “do nothing on his own”, “the Father is GREATER than I”, “the son knows not except what he is taught by the Father”, on and on ad naseum!! For some reason, Christianity and Christians TOTALLY OVERLOOK these verses, as they are reading the NT with their Christian Eyeglasses on.

Sandra: All I ever learned by studying the New Testament was that Yeshua had done away with the Sabbath, that he was Lord of the Sabbath, that he was the son of the Father, that all come to the Father come through Yeshua. All of this teaching is against Torah. Seeking the truth in the Tanakh is what gave me an understanding of who YeHoWaH is and how we are to worship and serve Him only. The teachings of Yeshua never gave me this knowledge.

Patty: Yeshua NEVER said that he had “done away” with the Sabbath – only that it is lawful (Torah observant) to HELP SOMEONE or FEED YOURSELF on the Sabbath. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sandra: Seeking the truth in the Tanakh is what gave me an understanding of who YeHoWaH is and how we are to worship and serve Him only. The teachings of Yeshua never gave me this knowledge. I am not throwing out a baby.

Patty: Actually, again, reading Yeshua in the proper light teaches the SAME THING in Matt. 22: [35] Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Sandra: I am throwing out a false prophet and an idol.

Patty: Unless you have evidence, this is lashon hara.

Sandra: The New testament teaching is not bath water. It does not cleanse as bath water does, it pollutes the truth, as does the teaching of Yeshua which is contained in the New Testament writings.

Patty: Sandra, Yeshua’s teachings were a Mishna on the Torah. Please reread the Sermon on the Mount. Yeshua RAISES THE BAR of Torah observance. He teaches that not only should we PHYSICALLY abstain from breaking the Ten Commandments, but that we shouldn’t THINK about breaking them. How on earth can this be wrong?!

Sandra: I can respect you as a person, but I can never accept Yeshua as a prophet of YeHoWaH who came to lead and teach truth to the sheep of YeHoWaH. The fact that many have followed his false teaching and are now coming out of it and seeing the light of Torah does not prove that Yeshua is/was a prophet of YeHoWaH sent to feed the sheep of YeHoWaH. Many more have been deceived by his teaching and are still deceived by his teaching.

Patty: Thank you for your respect, I respect you as well. I am not asking you to “accept Yeshua as a prophet of YeHoWaH who came to lead and teach truth to the sheep of YeHoWaH”. Obviously this was not the case for you. I am only asking that you accept that he was FOR ME and many others on this group. Those that have been “deceived” were so not because of what Yeshua said, but because of what others “said he said”. We see this echoed his words in Matt. 23 as they are being fulfilled today: [13] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourselves, neither suffer (allow) you them that are entering to go in.

Sandra: One more thing. You referred to me as being a zealous Jew like Yeshua. With all respect to Jews, I just want to point out that I am not a Jew nor do I have any desire to become a Jew. I believe I am a descendant of the tribe of Ephraim who is being called out from among the gentiles and have been called to turn from the lies which I have inherited from my fathers and turn to YeHoWaH with all my heart. I believe that Jews are my brothers and sisters and I have a great respect for them, but I do not desire to become one of them. I do not believe I have to become a Jew to be a child of Israel, as I believe I am a child of Israel of the tribe of Ephraim.

Patty; My apologies, I meant the reference to you as a “Jew”, or Yehudi, was one who was a worshipper of Yah. I did not mean that you were of the Tribe of Judah. On the other hand, we have no real proof that we were from any of the Lost Tribes, let alone Ephraim. So I have sufficed it to say that I am a Stranger that has joined myself to YHWH, not that I need any sort of title.

Sandra: Those who say they see him as a teacher of truth focus more on proving that he is the messiah than on seeking the truth of the Torah. To me he is a stumbling block to those coming out of a false pagan religion and is preventing those coming out from focusing their attentions on learning the Torah of YeHoWaH.

Patty: While this may be said of some, I think it is a generalization. You see, it doesn’t matter to me whether or not Yeshua was a messiah, a prophet, or just one “crying in the wilderness”. He was teaching a lesson on a Return to Torah, if one is wise enough to separate his teaching from the mythology surrounding it.

Sandra: I believe that in these last days there are two groups which YeHoWaH is calling out from among the gentiles. One group, the first ones who have been called out are the Jews and those who convert to Judaism and the other group is headed by Ephraim and consists of Ephraim and the other tribes who were scattered among the gentile nations. This latter group is the one I believe YeHoWaH is calling me to become a part of. I believe that most of those on this site are being called to be in that group. I believe that Judah and Ephraim have different roles to play in these times and that YeHoWaH will join us together as one nation when the time is right, but that time is not now. It will be as foretold by the prophets, when YeHoWaH establishes His Kingdom, and all Israel will be dwelling together as one nation with YeHoWaH their God and David their King.

Patty: I agree Sandra, and longingly await for this day, just like you!

Love & Blessings,
Patty

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Permalink Reply by Patty on August 30, 2009 at 11:38pm

Thank you Sandra,

I am sorry that you are not yet able or willing to sift throught the NT writings and glean the truth from them. Underneath all of the additions, redactions and editing of the Church lies the Torah message for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

I don't want to argue with you - you are my sister. I am glad that we have both found the Torah, although our paths have been different.

Love & Blessings,
Patty

Blessings to You,

Patty

Sandra Inglis said:

Shalom Patty,

I am glad that you and others have come to the knowledge of the truth through the teachings of Yeshua. From what you are saying it seems you have never been deceived by his teachings or by the teachings concerning him. I have never said there was no truth in his teaching only that he taught truth mixed with lies. I was not referring to parables when I was speaking of lies, I was speaking of outright lies, such as these:

John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 14:6-7 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Following is my response to some of your statements:

Patty: And likewise, if it were not for Yeshua, and may I say the Pauline writings (even though I have many disputes with them, millions of people would not have a Torah in their homes today. The religion of 1st century Israel would have died.

Sandra: The Jews have not died and the Tanakh is still in existence today. New Testament teaching is something we do not need, it only brings confusion. If we did not have the New Testament people would have sought truth in the Tanakh and would not have rejected it. People believe the Torah is obsolete because of the teachings of the New Testament. Any truth that can be found in the New Testament can be found in the Tanakh and can be more clearly understood from the Tanakh.

Patty: According to your model, if you accept all of the Tanakh teaching then you accept truth mixed with “lies”. What is harder to believe – that a man was born of a virgin or that woman came from the rib of a man? That a man walked on water or that he lived in the belly of a whale for three days? That one rose from the dead or that an ass spoke? You see again, that myth and storytelling were methods of remembering and passing on Truth. People didn’t have books back then.

Patty: What is harder to believe – that a man was born of a virgin or that woman came from the rib of a man? That a man walked on water or that he lived in the belly of a whale for three days? That one rose from the dead or that an ass spoke?

Sandra: The question should not be what is harder to believe, as all is possible with YeHoWaH. The question should be what is the truth and what is a lie.

The story of Jonah may or may not be a myth, but the lesson is the same, it serves to show us that we can not run away from YeHoWaH.

What is the point of the virgin birth? What truth does it convey to us? Or is this story a fabrication made to bring confusion and distort the truth about YeHoWaH?

The ass spoke to convey a message from YeHoWaH to a prophet. What was the purpose of Yeshua walking on water? Was it for the purpose of conveying a message from YeHoWaH or was it to bring attention to the divinity of Yeshua?

The story of the woman being formed from Adam's rib is to give an account of how YeHoWaH created woman. What is the purpose of the virgin birth? Is this story told to give glory to YeHoWaH or is it to show the divinity of a man?

More lies:

The New Testament teaches us that Yeshua is our saviour:

Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

John 4:41-42 And many more believed because of his own word; And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The New Testament brings confusion and teaches lies. The New Testament teaches about Yeshua, and makes him the saviour, creator, and justifier of Israel. The New Testament gives glory to Yeshua.

Now the truth:

The Tanakh teaches that YeHoWaH is our creator, saviour and the justifier of Israel:

Isaiah 45:11-25 Thus saith YeHoWaH, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: Ask Me of the things that are to come; concerning My sons, and concerning the work of My hands, command ye Me. I, even I, have made the earth, and created man upon it; I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have roused him up in victory, and I make level all his ways; he shall build My city, and he shall let Mine exiles go free, not for price nor reward, saith YeHoWaH of hosts. Thus saith YeHoWaH: The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine; they shall go after thee, in chains they shall come over; and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee: Surely God is in thee, and there is none else, there is no other God. Verily Thou art a God that hidest Thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. They shall be ashamed, yea, confounded, all of them; they shall go in confusion together that are makers of idols. O Israel, that art saved by YeHoWaH with an everlasting salvation; ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. For thus saith YeHoWaH that created the heavens, He is God; that formed the earth and made it, He established it, He created it not a waste, He formed it to be inhabited: I am YeHoWaH, and there is none else. I have not spoken in secret, in a place of the land of darkness; I said not unto the seed of Jacob: 'Seek ye Me in vain'; I YeHoWaH speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. Assemble yourselves and come, draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations; they have no knowledge that carry the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. Declare ye, and bring them near, yea, let them take counsel together: Who hath announced this from ancient time, and declared it of old? Have not I YeHoWaH? And there is no God else beside Me, a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside Me. Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else. By Myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from My mouth in righteousness, and shall not come back, that unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Only in YeHoWaH, shall one say of Me, is victory and strength; even to Him shall men come in confusion, all they that were incensed against Him. In YeHoWaH shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

The Tanakh teaches truth and brings us to an understanding of YeHoWaH and His ways. Tells us that YeHoWaH is our creator, saviour, and justifier of Israel. The Tanakh gives glory to YeHoWaH.


Shalom,
Sandra.

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Permalink Reply by Gina on September 11, 2009 at 6:51pm

Anyone know what is going with this project? I haven't seen anything thing new yet.

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