A SON BY ANY OTHER NAME.
Shalom all,
In another discussion on SWW I asked Ruth:
"For clarity, are you saying that Yehoshua was human or deity or a combination?”
Ruth responded:
“Web, before I answer I would ask you a question: How do you interpret Isa 9:6?
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”
Thanks for the question Ruth. This is my rather long reply.
Let’s begin by looking at how this passage is translated in a The Stone Edition Tanach, a Jewish published Bible Here it starts with verse 5:
Isa. 9:5 – For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the dominion will rest on his shoulder; the Wondrous Advisor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, called his name Sar-shalom [Prince of Peace];
9:6 - upon the one with the greatness in dominion and the boundless peace that will prevail on the throne of David and on his kingdom, to establish it and sustain it through justice and righteousness, from now to eternity. The zealousness of HASHEM, Master of Legions, will accomplish this!
Of course we can see that this is a very different translation, attributing most of the titles to YHWH rather than the promised king. The commentary for this verse reads as follows:
This wondrous salvation took place in the days of the child of Ahaz, the righteous King Hezekiah, whom God – the Wondrous Adviser, Mighty God, Eternal Father – called “Prince of Peace.”
While I think that the translation is off a little, I agree that the passage is speaking of Hezekiah. Unlike the Stone Tanach, I have no problem in using these terms for a king of Yisrael. The key, as usual, is to look at them in Hebrew and in light of writings in the Tanach.
I will begin by addressing the term “Wonderful Adviser” or as your translation says “Wonderful, Counselor.” We can see that Stone’s treats it as an adjective and a noun, while the Christian translation treats it as two adjectives. In Hebrew it says “Pele Yoweets.” It could be properly translated either way, but considering that the other titles all have a pattern of an adjective and a verb, it is probably safer to say that it was intended to be translated as “Wonderful Adviser” or “Wonderful Counselor.”
It really doesn’t make much difference in our understanding as someone who is both wonderful and a counselor would certainly make a wondrous adviser. What is important is that a wondrous adviser would be a great quality to have in a king of Judah.
This pattern is next followed with “Mighty God.” Here we may have a problem in that it actually says “El Gibor.” The word “El” is often translated generically as “god” or “God,” but it is from the Hebrew root “ayil” and means “strong” or “mighty.” So “el” is a might or power and a person or called “El” is being called a mighty one. We can see this word used in the following passage:
Gen 31:29
29 "It is in my power (el) to do you harm, but the God of your father spoke to me last night, saying, `Be careful that you speak to Jacob neither good nor bad.' (NKJ)
Neh 5:5
5 "Yet now our flesh is as the flesh of our brethren, our children as their children; and indeed we are forcing our sons and our daughters to be slaves, and some of our daughters have been brought into slavery. It is not in our power (el) to redeem them, for other men have our lands and vineyards." (NKJ)
So this word can definitely refer to the strength or power of men or to a mighty man. Gibor is a similar word that means “powerful, strong, or mighty.” So this phrase probably should be understood as “Strong Powerful One” rather than “Mighty God.”
Next we have the “Everlasting Father.” This is where it gets interesting. In Hebrew it says “Abi Ad.” This can certainly be translated as “everlasting father” and I believe that it should be in this case. However, this is not saying that the one being called these things is YHWH. YHWH is not the only one referred to as a “father” in Yisrael. Consider this passage:
Isa 22:20-25
20 'Then it shall be in that day, that I will call My servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah;
21 I will clothe him with your robe and strengthen him with your belt; I will commit your responsibility into his hand. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
22 The key of the house of David I will lay on his shoulder; so he shall open, and no one shall shut; and he shall shut, and no one shall open.
23 I will fasten him as a peg in a secure place, and he will become a glorious throne to his father's house.
24 'They will hang on him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the posterity, all vessels of small quantity, from the cups to all the pitchers.
25 'In that day,' says YHWH Tzava’ot, 'the peg that is fastened in the secure place will be removed and be cut down and fall, and the burden that was on it will be cut off; for YHWH has spoken.'"
Here the same prophet, Isaiah, is speaking of someone who will carry the authority of the king of Judah. He says “He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.” So “Father” is a title of authority. It says “he shall open and no one will shut,” giving us the “ad” or continuing aspect of the title Eternal Father. So, Everlasting father or Eternal Father, is another great title for a king of Judah.
Also notice that something is laid upon his shoulder, just like in our passage. In our passage the government or dominion were laid upon his shoulder. Here the “key of the house of David” is put on his shoulder. The House of David is the title for the government of Judah. There is no difference.
Finally he will be called “Sar Shalom”, or Prince of Peace. Because Prince of Peace is a fine translation, I won’t go into the meanings, but again this is a fine title for a King of Judah.
When we read all of these titles we should see that they are titles of a ruler, much like “Defender of the Faith” or His Royal Majesty.” They are about pageantry and shouldn’t be misunderstood as speaking of actual attributes to the degree that they are presented. They are purposefully overstated as royal titles usually are. It is within the context of being the King of Judah that he will be all of these things.
So is this passage a prophecy of Y’shua or some other messiah? I don’t know, but I do know that it was meant to be taken literally in that day as referring to an actual King of Judah.
When he is called “Everlasting Father” he is being referred to as a caring king. He is not being referred to as Abba YHWH. When he is called “Mighty El” he is being called a strong warrior, not the Almighty YHWH.
In connection with these titles I would like to address two more. It is common for folks in Christianity to refer to Jesus as “the Son of God.” This is yet another title for a king. Long before Yisrael existed kings were claiming to be the sons of their local deities. Many kings in Ancient Egypt and other eastern cultures would add their deity’s name to their own at their coronation., showing that they were “ordained” by the deity.
I believe that this idea of a son can be seen both as someone having the authority of the deity as well as being a servant of the deity. This is expressed first to Solomon by David:
1 Chr 28:6
6 "Now He said to me, `It is your son Solomon who shall build My house and My courts; for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be his Father.
Also in Psalm 2, a coronation Psalm supposedly written by David for the coronation of Solomon. Here he says:
Ps 2:1-12
1 Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against YHWH and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces and cast away Their cords from us."
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; YHWH shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 "Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion."
7 "I will declare the decree: YHWH has said to Me, 'You are My Son, today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; you shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.'"
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings; be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve YHWH with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
Here the king became the son of YHWH when he was set upon his throne. This is again being used as a title for a King of Judah and /or Yisrael.
And finally I will address the term “son of man.” This term is used most often simply to emphasis that one is human. For example:
Num 23:19
19 "Elohim is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it right?
Ps 8:4
4 What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him?
But it is also used as a title for a couple of people, Ezekiel and Daniel. What do these two have in common? They were both prophets that foretold of the final days. So when Y’shua is being referred to, or referring to himself as “son of man” he is either pointing out the fact that he is human or referring to himself as a prophet foretelling the final days or both. Either way he is not being called YHWH.
Also, back to Isaiah 9, if you read the whole chapter, as well as those around it, you will see that the context is dealing with Sennacherib and the other enemies of Judah. The point is that Judah will be delivered, not that a godman will be born.
I welcome all responses.
Web
In another discussion on SWW I asked Ruth:
"For clarity, are you saying that Yehoshua was human or deity or a combination?”
Ruth responded:
“Web, before I answer I would ask you a question: How do you interpret Isa 9:6?
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”
Thanks for the question Ruth. This is my rather long reply.
Let’s begin by looking at how this passage is translated in a The Stone Edition Tanach, a Jewish published Bible Here it starts with verse 5:
Isa. 9:5 – For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the dominion will rest on his shoulder; the Wondrous Advisor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, called his name Sar-shalom [Prince of Peace];
9:6 - upon the one with the greatness in dominion and the boundless peace that will prevail on the throne of David and on his kingdom, to establish it and sustain it through justice and righteousness, from now to eternity. The zealousness of HASHEM, Master of Legions, will accomplish this!
Of course we can see that this is a very different translation, attributing most of the titles to YHWH rather than the promised king. The commentary for this verse reads as follows:
This wondrous salvation took place in the days of the child of Ahaz, the righteous King Hezekiah, whom God – the Wondrous Adviser, Mighty God, Eternal Father – called “Prince of Peace.”
While I think that the translation is off a little, I agree that the passage is speaking of Hezekiah. Unlike the Stone Tanach, I have no problem in using these terms for a king of Yisrael. The key, as usual, is to look at them in Hebrew and in light of writings in the Tanach.
I will begin by addressing the term “Wonderful Adviser” or as your translation says “Wonderful, Counselor.” We can see that Stone’s treats it as an adjective and a noun, while the Christian translation treats it as two adjectives. In Hebrew it says “Pele Yoweets.” It could be properly translated either way, but considering that the other titles all have a pattern of an adjective and a verb, it is probably safer to say that it was intended to be translated as “Wonderful Adviser” or “Wonderful Counselor.”
It really doesn’t make much difference in our understanding as someone who is both wonderful and a counselor would certainly make a wondrous adviser. What is important is that a wondrous adviser would be a great quality to have in a king of Judah.
This pattern is next followed with “Mighty God.” Here we may have a problem in that it actually says “El Gibor.” The word “El” is often translated generically as “god” or “God,” but it is from the Hebrew root “ayil” and means “strong” or “mighty.” So “el” is a might or power and a person or called “El” is being called a mighty one. We can see this word used in the following passage:
Gen 31:29
29 "It is in my power (el) to do you harm, but the God of your father spoke to me last night, saying, `Be careful that you speak to Jacob neither good nor bad.' (NKJ)
Neh 5:5
5 "Yet now our flesh is as the flesh of our brethren, our children as their children; and indeed we are forcing our sons and our daughters to be slaves, and some of our daughters have been brought into slavery. It is not in our power (el) to redeem them, for other men have our lands and vineyards." (NKJ)
So this word can definitely refer to the strength or power of men or to a mighty man. Gibor is a similar word that means “powerful, strong, or mighty.” So this phrase probably should be understood as “Strong Powerful One” rather than “Mighty God.”
Next we have the “Everlasting Father.” This is where it gets interesting. In Hebrew it says “Abi Ad.” This can certainly be translated as “everlasting father” and I believe that it should be in this case. However, this is not saying that the one being called these things is YHWH. YHWH is not the only one referred to as a “father” in Yisrael. Consider this passage:
Isa 22:20-25
20 'Then it shall be in that day, that I will call My servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah;
21 I will clothe him with your robe and strengthen him with your belt; I will commit your responsibility into his hand. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
22 The key of the house of David I will lay on his shoulder; so he shall open, and no one shall shut; and he shall shut, and no one shall open.
23 I will fasten him as a peg in a secure place, and he will become a glorious throne to his father's house.
24 'They will hang on him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the posterity, all vessels of small quantity, from the cups to all the pitchers.
25 'In that day,' says YHWH Tzava’ot, 'the peg that is fastened in the secure place will be removed and be cut down and fall, and the burden that was on it will be cut off; for YHWH has spoken.'"
Here the same prophet, Isaiah, is speaking of someone who will carry the authority of the king of Judah. He says “He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.” So “Father” is a title of authority. It says “he shall open and no one will shut,” giving us the “ad” or continuing aspect of the title Eternal Father. So, Everlasting father or Eternal Father, is another great title for a king of Judah.
Also notice that something is laid upon his shoulder, just like in our passage. In our passage the government or dominion were laid upon his shoulder. Here the “key of the house of David” is put on his shoulder. The House of David is the title for the government of Judah. There is no difference.
Finally he will be called “Sar Shalom”, or Prince of Peace. Because Prince of Peace is a fine translation, I won’t go into the meanings, but again this is a fine title for a King of Judah.
When we read all of these titles we should see that they are titles of a ruler, much like “Defender of the Faith” or His Royal Majesty.” They are about pageantry and shouldn’t be misunderstood as speaking of actual attributes to the degree that they are presented. They are purposefully overstated as royal titles usually are. It is within the context of being the King of Judah that he will be all of these things.
So is this passage a prophecy of Y’shua or some other messiah? I don’t know, but I do know that it was meant to be taken literally in that day as referring to an actual King of Judah.
When he is called “Everlasting Father” he is being referred to as a caring king. He is not being referred to as Abba YHWH. When he is called “Mighty El” he is being called a strong warrior, not the Almighty YHWH.
In connection with these titles I would like to address two more. It is common for folks in Christianity to refer to Jesus as “the Son of God.” This is yet another title for a king. Long before Yisrael existed kings were claiming to be the sons of their local deities. Many kings in Ancient Egypt and other eastern cultures would add their deity’s name to their own at their coronation., showing that they were “ordained” by the deity.
I believe that this idea of a son can be seen both as someone having the authority of the deity as well as being a servant of the deity. This is expressed first to Solomon by David:
1 Chr 28:6
6 "Now He said to me, `It is your son Solomon who shall build My house and My courts; for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be his Father.
Also in Psalm 2, a coronation Psalm supposedly written by David for the coronation of Solomon. Here he says:
Ps 2:1-12
1 Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against YHWH and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces and cast away Their cords from us."
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; YHWH shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 "Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion."
7 "I will declare the decree: YHWH has said to Me, 'You are My Son, today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; you shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.'"
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings; be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve YHWH with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
Here the king became the son of YHWH when he was set upon his throne. This is again being used as a title for a King of Judah and /or Yisrael.
And finally I will address the term “son of man.” This term is used most often simply to emphasis that one is human. For example:
Num 23:19
19 "Elohim is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it right?
Ps 8:4
4 What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him?
But it is also used as a title for a couple of people, Ezekiel and Daniel. What do these two have in common? They were both prophets that foretold of the final days. So when Y’shua is being referred to, or referring to himself as “son of man” he is either pointing out the fact that he is human or referring to himself as a prophet foretelling the final days or both. Either way he is not being called YHWH.
Also, back to Isaiah 9, if you read the whole chapter, as well as those around it, you will see that the context is dealing with Sennacherib and the other enemies of Judah. The point is that Judah will be delivered, not that a godman will be born.
I welcome all responses.
Web
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Web Hulon on -
Thanks Ruth and Shabbat Shalom. This may well be taken as "that which was will be" and be speaking of not only Hezekiah, but also Mashiakh. I too have read rabinnic sources referring to this as a "messianic" passage.
I wonder though why we still could not understand these titles as being just that, the titles of a king, rather than as a decription of one's nature or essence. Even Y'shua never called himself the father and, as far as I know, was not referred to as "the Father" or even "a father" by anyone in the NT. He was, however, clearly seen as a physical heir to the throne of David.
Does the qualifications of THE Mashiakh, as compared to A mashiakh, literally require one to be YHWH in the flesh, or just to be a physical descendant of David? Is THE Mashiakh something different than the promised heir to the throne of David? If Y'shua was the rightful heir to the throne, then all of these titles would belong to him anyway, yet he could be just as human as Hezekiah.
What do you think?
Web
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Permalink Reply by Glenn Chatterton on -
Web,
You have raised some very excellent points here. Well reasoned arguments with pertinent references. The bottom line I take from this is my need to learn Hebrew NOW!
Shalom,
Glenn
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Permalink Reply by Ally Kale on -
Shabbat Shalom all,
Here is a very interesting link. Scroll down to listen to Tovia's lectures. Very insightful and entertaining. Especially: How Missionairies Paint Jesus into The Jewish Scriptures, Confusing Texts, and well, I could on and on. You may not agree with everything said, but some valuable information indeed.
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/biblical.html
Blessings,
Ally
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Permalink Reply by Ted Walther on -
The "us" is the beni Elohim, the angels in heaven. Of whom there are a great throng, and they sang for joy when the daystar was created. It makes sense, yes? The Father spoke, the angels leaped to obey. Not a magical creation, but a practical one. YHWH designed creation, gave his instructions, and the angels went around doing the construction work.
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Permalink Reply by Elyaqiym Chilqiyahuw on -
THE TIME IS FULFILL; AND THE KINGDOM OF YHAHOSHUAH IS AT HAND.
REPENT OF YOUR SIN; AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.
THE SON OF MAN.
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Permalink Reply by Remez on -
Here is Congregation Beth Lechem's (Torah for the Whole House of Israel) translation of these verses in Isaiah 9, which adds some shades of nuance as well:
5. ...because a child is born to us! A son is given to us, and the dominion will be on his shoulder! And his name is proclaimed [to be] "Wonderful(,) Counselor, Mighty Prevailing Judge, Founder of [Eternal] Continuity, Prince of Peace.
6. There is no end of the increase of his dominion and of peace, on the throne of David, and over his realm, to set it in order and to sustain it with a legal system and righteousness from now on and forever. Jealousy [for] YHWH of Armies will accomplish this.
The word "Wonderful" in Hebrew means "incomprehensible and hard to understand). Counselor: or advisor, consultant. As Yosef, Pharaoh's advisor, was given Pharaoh's signet ring and was for nearly all intents and purposes treated as if he were Pharaoh himself, this "son" would have a unique association with YHWH, which to some extent is "incomprehensible"; there is meant to be something out of reach about a king, so that he is given honor and respect above his fellows, though that is not the only side of him, since he is a servant to those he governs. Messiah is YHWH's deputy and representative, having been given all authority (Mat. 28:18) by the One greater than he.
Prevailing judge: indeed he defeated the Adversary. Again, he word "judge" is El. The term ranges from human judges (Ps. 82:6) to angelic beings to YHWH Himself. Thomas recognized that Y'shua was this type of judge (Yochanan 20:28) after he proved his doubting to have been erroneous. He called him "my master and my El" in the sense of, "You've beaten me; I surrender to your having proven me wrong." This has nothing to do with deity. As Ross points out, Moshe was called an Elohim to Pharaoh; does that mean Moshe was a deity?
Continuity: from a word meaning "to advance onward". Messiah (any anointed of YHWH) is the "founder" of another occasion for Adam, the restored human race, to continue into eternity rather than be burned up like the garments and boots in v. 4 of the same chapter of Isaiah.
In regard to this referring first to Hizqiyahu, in 2 Kings 16, we read:
5. Then R’tzin the king of Aram and Peqakh the son of R’malyahu, the king of Israel, came up to Yerushalayim for battle, and they besieged Akhaz, but they were not able to engage them in battle.
At this point, Yeshayahu 7 tells us that the king (Akhaz)’s heart and the people’s with him wavered, but YHWH told him not to let his heart go soft because of the anger of these two kings, because within 65 years, Ephraim would no longer be a people. Actually, it would end up being dispersed within only about ten years, but YHWH was apparently still giving the northern kingdom room to repent. He had already determined its end, but had any of the kings done better, He might have prolonged our time in the Land. Akhaz was told to ask YHWH for a sign, and he refused out of a sense of false modesty, since in fact he did not trust YHWH. This tried YHWH’s patience, and it was at this time that the well-known "Messianic prophecy" in Isaiah 7:14 was spoken: “Therefore, Adonai Himself will give you a sign: Behold! The young woman has conceived, and is giving birth to a son, and you will call his name Imanu-El.” This referred first to Akhaz’s son, Hizqiyahu, but has a secondary reference to Yahshua. But YHWH continued, “Before the lad knows how to refuse what is wrong and choose what is right, the land that you are dreading will be abandoned by both of her kings,” and YHWH would bring a time such as had not been seen since Shlomoh’s day.
2 Kings 20:
1. In those days Hizqiyahu became deathly ill, and Yeshayahu the prophet, the son of Amotz, came to him, and told him, “This is what YHWH says: ‘Set your house in order, because you will die and not survive.’”
2. So he turned his face toward the wall and prayed to YHWH, saying,
3. “I beg you, YHWH, please remember how I have walked before you in faithfulness with a whole heart, and have done what is right in Your eyes!” And Hizqiyah wept with a tremendous overflow.
4. And it turned out [that] Yeshayahu had not [yet] gotten out of the city center when the word of YHWH came to him to say,
5. “Go back and tell Hizqiyahu, the ruler of My people, ‘This is what YHWH, the Elohim of your ancestor David, says: “I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Indeed, I will heal you. On the third day you must go up to the house of YHWH.
6. "'“And I have added fifteen years onto your days, and I will snatch you and this city from the hand of the king of Ashur, and I will defend this city for My own sake and for the sake of My servant David.”'"
When we compare the age of Hizqiyahu’s son who succeeds him, assuming he is the only or eldest son, we can see that Hizqiyahu’s main concern was not that he would die but that he did not yet have an heir to David’s throne, so it appeared that the righteous line of David would be lost forever. Having these additional fifteen years would allow him all the time he needed to father a son and raise him to an age when he could have at least some degree of maturity in ruling. Some parts of Yeshayahu 53 probably do apply to Yahshua in a secondary manner (as there are parallels with his life in the lives of many of his ancestors as well as other people), but they do not therefore carry across the board. Has Yahshua “seen his seed”? Maybe allegorically, but not directly. But reading the “servant song” from Yeshayahu 52:13 through 54:17 in light of the event described here shows that every aspect of it applies in a primary sense to Hizqiyahu.
When we learn to reason as a Hebrew, we can recognize that some aspects of Hizqiyahu’s life do teach about Yahshua, but not every part has to. When we make assumptions, read things back into the prophets from the New Testament rather than interpreting the New Testament by the parameters set by Torah, or are dogmatic about something that is not absolutely solid like the Torah, the baby ends up being thrown out with the bathwater. We become guilty of the blood of those who reject Yahshua even as Messiah because they cannot accept the underlying agenda of the doctrine that he is deity. When we interpret the terms in their Hebrew sense, we can see that rejecting the one premise does not mean we need to reject the other, and the two houses can indeed agree.
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Permalink Reply by Ted Walther on
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Maybe Yeshuah did see his seed. Maybe he married and had children before beginning his ministry. Who knows? Some brothers have ably defended the idea.
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Permalink Reply by Ted Walther on
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Lee Anne Hodges, what about the women who danced and sang "Saul has killed his thousands, and David his tens of thousands"? Were not David and Saul real Messiahs at that time? Were the women committing idolatry by celebrating the victory that YHWH gave to his servants David and Saul? (1 Samuel 29:5)
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