Any other Lunar Sabbatarians on here?
Are there any keepers of the true Sabbath on this board?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ted Walther on -
I've been busy this past week. A friend shared their thoughts on this thread,
which I in turn will share here, with some of my own words and phrasing added
in. I respond in turn to James Tabor, Melissa, and Claude Perkins
In response to James Tabor:
>I have no intention of carrying on with you on this topic via these kinds of
>e-mails.
Is this an attempt to shut down the dialog, leaving yourself with the last
word?
>Also, I think the dogmatic judgmental tone you reflect is objectionable, no
>matter how convinced you are.
Aren't the Saturday keepers in this thread dogmatic and judgmental themselves?
The posts here are very dismissive and not willing to consider that Saturday
might be wrong.
>Your position is the "true" Sabbath, while others are "false." You even put
>this in your initial post--Are there any "true" Sabbath keepers out there, as
>if the rest of us are somehow pagan and false, not to mention ALL faithful
>Jews for the past 2500 years.
I simply stated my beliefs. Aren't we able to do this? I didn't make the
judgement that any board members here are pagan and false; you jumped to that
conclusion. And why did you say that faithful Jews have only kept Saturday for
the past 2500 years? What did they keep before then? The luni-solar sabbath
instead of the astrologers sabbath perhaps?
Some people here celebrate Christmas and Birthdays. I also call those
practices pagan. But I don't call the members here pagan; we are here because
are seeking the One God of Israel, right?
>Then asking me if I prefer tradition or the Torah, and even being coy in your
>reply to Teri when you surely knew she was not agreeing with your 8, 15, 22,
>29 breakdown.
I was injecting a little humor into a grim situation. Teri, and many others
are being VERY OFFENSIVE when they make comments about "how easy" it is to
"count to seven". I know geometry, algebra, trigonometry, linear algebra,
calculus, combinatorics, and a few other areas of mathematics. Making comments
about me not being able to "count to seven" is insulting; I'm sorry the humor
of the situation, Teri having her words turned back on her, doesn't strike you.
And as far as I am concerned, Saturday keepers are so busy counting seven, they
skip right over one through six. The sabbath day is just one seventh of the
commandment; the full commandment also requires a count of six work days!
When I asked if you prefer tradition or Torah, I was being perfectly sincere.
Torah says NOTHING about Saturday, it does link sabbaths and New Moons tightly
together, there is scriptural evidence that proves a Saturday sabbath is
impossible. You have consistently referred to Jewish tradition in support of
your Saturday thesis, even to the point of saying that some scriptures don't
mean what they seem to mean. I refer to Hosea 2:11 and Jeremiah 2:6.
>I looked at that Web page you recommended early on and found it to be so full
>of sloppy presentation and ill founded assertions I found myself wondering how
>you could have possibly endorsed something of that nature, plus the cavalier
>and bogus use of terms (Satyrday?? etc.), as if those who keep YHVH's Sabbath
>are following a day of "Satan."
This is sort of like nit-picking about grammar or spelling mistakes. You are
sophisticated enough not to bother with that, but you have just done the
equivalent. You are ignoring the substance of the cited pages, which is the
Scriptural arguments, and focusing on other things.
It is the information on those pages that needs to be looked at. As for the
use of Satyrday and Saturns-day, that may be insulting, but look at it in the
context; most Sabbath keepers have come out of Saturday-keeping.
Saturday-keepers frequently and often pull exactly the same shenanigans on
people who keep Sunday, calling them Sun worshippers, and accusing them of
having the mark of the beast. Seventh Day Adventists are worst for this, but
Worldwiders have also done their fair share of it.
I don't condone or endorse name-calling, but I assure you it was all done in
good faith, to wake people up to the pagan astrological origins of the day that
they think is the Sabbath. And if there were good lunar sabbath sites that
didn't indulge in this practice, I would choose to link them instead. I may
end up making one myself someday.
>I have looked at some of your other things at your Web page and they seem
>equally questionable--the earth does not revolve around the sun, we did not
>land on the moon, the Mars lander is faked?? I realize these are off this
>topics, but I am seeing a trend here.
There is good evidence for all of those things, but those are personal beliefs
and
a) Are not directly related to salvation
b) Have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
>And now you are telling me about the meaning of the Hebrew term "mo'edim" as
>if this very general term (the noun and verb refer to countless kinds of
>gatherings, meetings, appointments, even places, including the weekly Sabbath)
>refers to solar/lunar phenomenon.
You were the one saying that the Sabbath is not listed in Genesis 1:14,
therefore the lunar sabbath can't be true. I was showing you that the sabbath
is indeed classed as a moed, therefore your argument holds no water. Although
Genesis 1:14 by itself isn't proof positive FOR lunar sabbath, it cannot in any
way be used AGAINST it. And an unbiased observer would look at that verse and
be happy to link in the sabbath as one of the "moed" that the sun and moon are
intended to schedule. Is the Sabbath not listed in Leviticus 23 in the list
moed, of which ALL THE OTHER moed are indeed agreed to be determined by sun and
moon? Why break the pattern? What is your compelling reason? Leviticus 23
DOES show Genesis 1:14 to be talking about the Sabbath. Because YHWH is a God
of order, and he changeth not, even forever.
>Or that the texts in Lamentations and Hosea mean everyone forgot the Sabbath
>revealed to Moses at Sinai--presumably even Hosea and Jeremiah themselves?
The verses say the Sabbaths would be made to cease. They did cease. The
forgetting happened later. They were even restored in the time of Ezra, before
ceasing again after the destruction of the temple.
>BTW, on Qumran, there was never any dispute in the 2nd Temple period among ANY
>of the groups (which blasted one another for just about everything else!) of
>which I am aware about the weekly Shabbat, only about the solar/lunar calendar
>and the counting of Shavuot, Jubilees, etc. Even these views are ALL recorded
>in the Rabbinic writings. They did not suppress the alternative views.
Good grief, James. You weren't there. How do you know? Daniel Gruber's book,
"Rabbi Akiba's Messiah" does an excellent job outlining how points of view WERE
suppressed, vigorously. By the rabbi's on the one hand. And through the
material in Alexander Del Mar's book, "The Worship of Augustus Caesar" we have
documentation on how the Roman empire (including the church) also suppressed
points of view. Josephus refers to many documents that are no longer
available, such as the correspondance between King Hiram and King Solomon.
Isaiah 46
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am
God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that
are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my
pleasure:
And as for the groups not disagreeing about the sabbath day (Qumran, Pharisees,
Christians), that is perfectly understandable. Lunar Sabbatarians peg the loss
of the Sabbath to the time of Hadrian, in retribution for the Bar Kochba
rebellion, where he really got harsh about enforcing the calendar of his God
the Father, otherwise known as Julius Caesar, who introduced the Julian
calendar. The Julian Calendar was the first calendar to divorce itself from
the activity of the moon. Like the switch of miles to kilometers (imperial to
metric) the switch from a proper heavenly calendar in tune with nature, to a
calendar invented by man, with no reference to the seasons, was the work of the
Julian/Roman/Beast calendar. The book the 7 day week by Zerubavel didn't go
far enough; Not only is the 7 day astrologers week unrelated to nature; so are
the 30 and 31 day months that Julius Caesar instituted. So is the 365 day
year, with every fourth a leap year. The moon is totally left out of the
Julian calendar. There goes the 7 day astrologers week, as far as uniqueness
goes. There goes the whole thesis of that book.
>I would be very curious to know if you have ever been to Israel and
>experienced even one Shabbat, or if not, have you ever been in a devout Jewish
>home on Shabbat?
What difference that would make apart from perhaps a nice warm fuzzy feeling?
And yes, I have. So what? Sincerity doesn't mean accuracy. And the Bible
shows the pattern that there is no group that is righteous for more than a few
generations at a time. None. Apostacy is cyclical and guaranteed. Why are
the Orthodox Jews suddenly exempt in your eyes from this pattern that occurs
throughout the entire Bible? Remember my earlier question, do you prefer the
traditions of the Jews, or scripture?
In response to Melissa:
>Ted, I am not going to engage in your arguments. there is no love coming from
>you in this discussion whatsoever, and I am done. others may be intriqued with
>you, and your "knowledge", I for one, am not. As I stated, its phariseeism at
>its best.
Melissa, you are new. Have you read the whole thread or only the last few
comments? You are using sarcasm by putting the word knowledge in brackets. So
what is love? Love is discipline - the Lord disciplines those He loves.
Discipline hurts. Is love giving one what one wants or only saying what you
think others want to hear. What is Pharisism? My friend looked it up:
Hypocritical observance of the letter of the religious or moral law.
Doctrines and practices of the Pharisees.
The beliefs and practices of an ancient Jewish sect, especially strictness
of religious Jewish observance, close adherence to ORAL laws and
traditions, and belief in an afterlife and a coming Messiah.
Observance of external forms of religion without genuine belief, hypocrisy.
So you are calling me a hypocrite? Why?
>Straining gnats!
As for straining gnats - I hardly think working out what is the true and
correct and not just believing what we have been told is straining at a gnat -
I would say it is the weightier matters of law, justice, mercy and
faithfulness.
In response to Claude Perkins:
>How about this: Paul says to keep the traditions as I handed them to you and
>US,and not only did he but also Yeshua went to the synagogue on the
>TRADITIONAL sabbath day which James so eloquently stated was and is Sundown
>Friday night to Sundown Sat night,so many times we try to do whats right in
>our own eyes just as it states in Judges 21: 25 and in those days
>there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.
Well I didn't get the traditions from Paul - I got a lot of church baggage and
doctrines and one bible. Thankfully I have His Spirit too. I think you would
know to say that they went into the synagogues on the 7th day not Saturday -
the word Saturday is not in the Bible.
What if the whole Messianic Movement and Judaism is doing what is right in
their own eyes and not following after the oracles of God Most High? There is
a way that seems right to a man but in the end it leads to destruction.
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Permalink Reply by David on -
Thank you for your reply Ted. The subject of this topic should be addressed. As you know, any direction change from the norm will be met with a degree of harshness. I would ask that if this subject is of no interest then one should refrain from needless debate.
In my opinion, Ted has proven to me that he is not ignorant nor rebellious, only learning to communicate......therefore those interested in this discussion should do so with understanding that this (Topic) is something that warrants a look at. otherwise one should refrain. I would be willing to wage that If givin' the chance that this Topic heading could be rephrased in a way to imply a softer tone. Mainly, the question....are there any OTHER "true" Sabbath keepers on this board, could have been asked in a less dogmatic way.
This Topic has got me to at least consider what Ted is asking. Although the jury is still out for me, I can only wonder where this subject will lead. Perhaps as in most of the changes I have gone through on this path, the search is worth the risk.
The desire, so to speak, is ones desire to "walk in step with our Creator"....The fruit is not ripe at this time to know.
I see points from both sides....some are on topic, some not! Not one to reinvent the wheel, I do wish to grease it and see how well it can roll or go through its "cycle".
I, along with everyone one this site is busy and probably can not spend lots of time posting on this subject.
more later....
dave
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Permalink Reply by Nan Griffiths on -
Hi Ted,
I can clearly see that this is a topic that you are very passionate about. You have devoted much time and study to it and I commend you for that. I can only say that if you are right and am trying to show us truth, than HaShem will have to reveal it to me. At this point, I don't want to reject anything said because I have been in much error in my life but it was always me asking HaShem to reveal truth to me and He has, very frequently, so I will wait on Him but in the mean time I will continue to observe Fri evening to Sat. evening Shabbat. If I am wrong, than He will have to show me. I can not longer afford to be persuaded by man, who has so frequently led me down a path of death. HaShem is my Shepherd, my Ishi. I want to walk in all of His ways,but only as He directs and guides.
I hope that you will try to understand me in this. I am only speaking for myself and pray that HaShem will enlighten the path of those who truely seek to know Him and His truth. I have come to realize that no one has 100% truth. We all have some truth only. Some day we will all be on the same page anyway.
Blessings,
Nan
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Permalink Reply by Ted Walther on
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Nan, it was said, "seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened". Are you going to wait for a vision? Perhaps a dream? Perhaps a miracle? Does not the Holy Spirit indwell all believers when we gather together? If another believer says "this is worth looking into", then you either trust them, or you check it out yourself.
You have been reading this thread; unless the spirit in you responds with interest, there is unlikely to be a miraculous vision or dream telling you to change. Just study it out in the Word.
You are keeping Saturday. I, and many others, who are keen and zealous for Torah, have learnt that Saturday (and Sunday) keeping has pagan origins. You are here because you are trying to get away from the pagan origins of Christianity, right? The Sabbath is very fundamental, so it is important to get right.
This is not me persuading you as a man, this is me as a fellow Torah-keeper telling you "you should look into this".
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Permalink Reply by Nan Griffiths on
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Hi Ted,
No, I am not waiting for a vision or anything like that. let me explain to you this way. I am new at this ever since giving up J-man. I am new at this website and sometimes there is a lot to digest. You do not give a baby meat to eat, you give him baby food and if you feed him to fast, he will choke. This is my experience as a mother and I see it is true when speaking to those who have come out of Xianity. So, I believe that there is G-D's timing for everything in our lives. If someone had told me years ago while I was still in the church that I would have to give up all that I have, I would never have believed them, NEVER! HaShem is gentle with us little lambs. Pray for us then to know the truth.
Shalom,
Nan
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Permalink Reply by Glenn Chatterton on -
Hey Ted,
I'd like to add a few thoughts at this juncture. I can fully appreciate the apprehension felt and expressed by many in this thread, having been there myself. As YHVH reveals things in our life that He wants us to let go as we draw nearer to Him, there is often a sense of dread, fear and uncertainty as we move from the familiar to the unknown. Some of this comes from past conditioning, where we have been told that dire consequences are tied to wrong choices.
In my brief walk with YHVH, I have come to believe that He knows our heart, and He is so loving, compassionate and patient, and is most interested in how we respond to Him, and wants only the best for us. He knows that we are just flesh, and that we are fraught with folly. I’m convinced that He is able to bring us to the place He wants us to be, provided we are totally committed to Him.
This includes our observance of His ways, such as Shabbat. He will teach us His ways, and lead us in His paths. We will learn them all as we whole-heartedly follow Him. We will not learn them all at once, and they will often be revealed to us by some unexpected messengers. This has always been His way, to “use the foolish things to confound the wise”. Not that I think you are by any means foolish, Ted!
May we all remember that His ways are higher than ours, and be willing to hear Him when He reveals them to us, even if they may seem strange to us. This would certainly not be out of character for YHVH.
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Permalink Reply by Ted Walther on
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Glenn, if I share something with someone that strengthens their faith and obedience to YHWH, and am considered a fool for doing it, then being considered a fool is a blessing from YHWH. I appreciate the wisdom and maturity you display on this forum.
In scripture, many angels are ordinary men. If only people knew the true meanings of "melekh" and "nabi" in Hebrew; I think Isaac Mozeson could weigh in with some insight, and definitely the correct methods with which to approach the topic of those two words.
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Permalink Reply by Melissa on -
Ted, Nan and Glenn have hit the nail on the head. If we are to follow in the footsteps of our Elder brother, Yahshua, he would never be so brutal as you have been on this thread. Are there not verses where he says, he would tell them more, but they could not handle it at that time.
My father is just now coming to the knowledge of Yahshua as a man, our brother, and his whole belief system has been turned upside down. YHVH turned my world upside down with it, and while He is doing this, the wicked are causing MANY problems in our lives, so its not just us learning this, but its also ALL the other things I am sure most of us are dealing with.
I for one cannot believe you are continuing this thread on. Its very discouraging, and btw YAHSHUA did rebuke pharisees, ever notice why he turned the tables upside down in the temple, it was because they were buying and selling sacrificial animals, and I would gander that right now, our elder brother would be highly discouraged at your treatment of those just understanding.
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Permalink Reply by florence woodard-harris on -
Explain to me what the true Sabbath is? Show me as well in the scripture what you are talking about, thanks.
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Permalink Reply by Allen on -
All truth seekers please remember that the calendar being presented by Ted and others "assumes" that there was a switch at some time in history to today’s continuous seven day cycle, with the seventh day of the week becoming the Sabbath.
In order to substantiate this claim there must be historical evidence of a world shift by “all of the Jewish people”. This evidence must show that the Jewish people stopped observing the Sabbath according to the “proposed” reckoning and began observing the continuous seven day cycle which is in use today.
No evidence has been presented to back up this possibility.
Until reliable historical evidence can be shown to affirm this calendar position its foundation rests on conjecture and speculation.
While I agree that we should prove all things. I also know that those who are new to the torah don’t need the added burden of trying to reconcile a proposed calendar which lacks foundational evidence.
Shalom,
Allen
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Permalink Reply by Paul W Puckett on -
I would like to offer the attached historical references for starters
Forgive me Ted, if I've jumped in too soon here.
Regards
Paul - Attachments:
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Permalink Reply by Ted Walther on
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Paul, thanks for that reference. In addition, James Tabor recommend a book called the "Seven Day Week". It was loaded with evidence concerning the worldwide adoption of the astrologers week after the time of Julius Caesar, its pagan Egyptian and Baylonian origins. So that adds a second job-lot of evidence.
It is the keepers of the astrological week who lack evidence. There is no evidence of Saturday being counted as the "seventh day" of an astrological week until the time of Dio Cassius, two hundred years after Christ; the few references before then to Saturn's day can just as well refer to specific days of the month, as Arnold Bowen and Troy Miller have researched out.
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