Can we just agree to be agreeable?
Most people in the circles that would read anything that I am writing are very familiar with Ezekiel 37 and the joining of the 2 sticks. For the sake of full disclosure, I am someone who is fully convinced that the majority of folks turning to Torah at this time are actually REturning to the Torah of their fathers. They are, for the most part, a part of the so-called “Lost tribes of Yisrael.” I personally prefer “The House of Joseph.”
First let me say that I find it quite telling that the traditional haftarah for Torah Portion V’Yigash (Genesis 44:18 – 47:27). This is interesting because the Torah reading is about Judah drawing near to Joseph and Joseph reveling himself to his brothers, while the Haftarah (Ezekiel 37:15 - :28) is about the sticks (or trees) of Judah and Joseph being joined back together. The haftarah portions are believed to have been established over 2,000 years ago, so that long ago Jewish scholars were connecting the past reunification of the brothers of Yisrael with a prophetic, future reunification of the tribes of Yisrael.
At some point, between the revealing of Joseph to his brothers and the joining together of the sticks in Ezekiel, there had to be another separation in Yisrael. We know that this took place, first with the division of the Kingdom at the beginning of the reign of Solomon’s son Rehoboam, when ten tribes were given to the Ephramite Jeroboam.
We see in Hoshea that the tribes were further separated when the Northern Kingdom, known as Yisrael, Ephraim or the House of Joseph, were taken from the land by the Assyrians as a punishment for participating in, and adopting as there own, the idol worship of their neighbors. This separation is also spoken of in the Book of Zechariah. There is some information there that I would like to point out as a possible aid to understanding the future reunification of the tribes of Yisrael.
Zech 11:1-14
1 Open your doors, O Lebanon, that fire may devour your cedars.
2 Wail, O cypress, for the cedar has fallen, because the mighty trees are ruined. Wail, O oaks of Bashan, for the thick forest has come down.
3 There is the sound of wailing shepherds! For their glory is in ruins. There is the sound of roaring lions! For the pride of the Jordan is in ruins.
4 Thus says YHWH my Elohim, "Feed the flock for slaughter,
5 "whose owners slaughter them and feel no guilt; those who sell them say, 'Blessed be YHWH, for I am rich'; and their shepherds do not pity them.
6 "For I will no longer pity the inhabitants of the land," says YHWH. "But indeed I will give everyone into his neighbor's hand and into the hand of his king. They shall attack the land, and I will not deliver them from their hand."
7 So I fed the flock for slaughter, in particular the poor of the flock. I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bonds; and I fed the flock.
8 I dismissed the three shepherds in one month. My soul loathed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
9 Then I said, "I will not feed you. Let what is dying die, and what is perishing perish. Let those that are left eat each other's flesh."
10 And I took my staff, Beauty, and cut it in two, that I might break the covenant which I had made with all the peoples.
11 So it was broken on that day. Thus the poor of the flock, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of YHWH.
12 Then I said to them, "If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain." So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.
13 And YHWH said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-- that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of YHWH for the potter.
14 Then I cut in two my other staff, Bonds, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Notice that there are two staffs, and each is cut in two. The second staff was called Bonds or Bands. It is the Hebrew word “chebel,” which means “twisted as a rope.” The breaking of this “rope” was symbolic of the breaking of the bond of brotherhood that had been re-established with the revealing of Joseph to his brothers in Egypt. This left both Judah and Israel in the unenviable position of being a “single fold chord”:
Eccl 4:9-12
9 Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their labor.
10 For if they fall, one will lift up his companion. But woe to him who is alone when he falls, for he has no one to help him up.
11 Again, if two lie down together, they will keep warm; but how can one be warm alone?
12 Though one may be overpowered by another, two can withstand him. And a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
But what I would like to concentrate on is the first staff that Zechariah cut in two. This staff was called “Beauty” according to KJV. The Hebrew name for the staff is Noam. This could be translated as “beauty” or as “pleasant,” but it is more clearly translated as “agreeable.” There is an obvious prophetic statement being made here: Before the bond of brotherhood between Judah and Israel were broken, the agreement between them was destroyed. I believe that this is of the utmost importance to our understanding as it may contain a remedy for the broken brotherhood.
Notice that in Zechariah 11:10 the breaking of the staff called Beauty, or Agreeable, symbolized the breaking of YHWH’s covenant with “all the peoples.” This is means that as a precursor to the breaking of brotherhood of Judah and Yisrael, YHWH broke the covenant that He had not only with them, but with all peoples. In other words, the actions of Judah and Yisrael had a negative effect on YHWH’s relationship with ALL peoples of the earth. When Judah and Yisrael were no longer agreeable, it affected all peoples. The whole earth would pay the price for their actions and attitudes.
The removal of agreement led to the breaking of brotherhood. Here is our clue. There is much talk and prayer and hope and speculation concerning the reunification of Judah and Yisrael in certain circles today. It seems, though, that every time any effort is made, those involved end up in disagreement over one matter or the other. This lack of agreement leaves the staff of brotherhood broken. So how can we repair these bonds?
First, let’s start at the beginning. Like Joseph in Egypt, before we can reveal ourselves as a brother, we must figure out who we are. Just as Judah’s “drawing near” was the turning point for Joseph, leading to his revealing himself to his brothers, so I think that hearing Judah’s story, becoming familiar with the Jews, has lead us to recognize ourselves. This is the first step. We need to recognize who we are. For more on this go to www.1bread.info/menu/html and watch the V’aYigash video.
Next, we need to seek that which we, those that believe that we are the House of Joseph, can agree upon. The key to repairing the first staff is becoming agreeable. So many people define themselves by who they are not rather than who they are. Let’s take the things that separate us off the table for a while and focus on the things that we can agree upon. I know that it’s not as exciting as debate and argument, but I think it will be even more profitable. Let’s see what we, the House of Joseph, can agree upon and seek to restore brotherhood with Judah.
I chose to post this here because SWW is “a place of meeting for anyone that believes in the one God of Israel and seeks to live according to the principles of the Hebrew Bible.” It sounds like the perfect place for this discussion.
I would like for everyone to give suggestions of what they believe we can agree upon without demands and restrictions. I’m not seeking extremely detailed answers that will further limit us, but just general thoughts. I’m not looking to formulate a doctrinal statement, just find common ground.
If folks will write in what they believe we ALL can agree upon, it will be a start. From there we can discuss and add and improve.
Maybe the SWW statement above will be all we have in agreement and maybe that’s enough. Hopefully we’ll find out.
Let's fix that stick.
First let me say that I find it quite telling that the traditional haftarah for Torah Portion V’Yigash (Genesis 44:18 – 47:27). This is interesting because the Torah reading is about Judah drawing near to Joseph and Joseph reveling himself to his brothers, while the Haftarah (Ezekiel 37:15 - :28) is about the sticks (or trees) of Judah and Joseph being joined back together. The haftarah portions are believed to have been established over 2,000 years ago, so that long ago Jewish scholars were connecting the past reunification of the brothers of Yisrael with a prophetic, future reunification of the tribes of Yisrael.
At some point, between the revealing of Joseph to his brothers and the joining together of the sticks in Ezekiel, there had to be another separation in Yisrael. We know that this took place, first with the division of the Kingdom at the beginning of the reign of Solomon’s son Rehoboam, when ten tribes were given to the Ephramite Jeroboam.
We see in Hoshea that the tribes were further separated when the Northern Kingdom, known as Yisrael, Ephraim or the House of Joseph, were taken from the land by the Assyrians as a punishment for participating in, and adopting as there own, the idol worship of their neighbors. This separation is also spoken of in the Book of Zechariah. There is some information there that I would like to point out as a possible aid to understanding the future reunification of the tribes of Yisrael.
Zech 11:1-14
1 Open your doors, O Lebanon, that fire may devour your cedars.
2 Wail, O cypress, for the cedar has fallen, because the mighty trees are ruined. Wail, O oaks of Bashan, for the thick forest has come down.
3 There is the sound of wailing shepherds! For their glory is in ruins. There is the sound of roaring lions! For the pride of the Jordan is in ruins.
4 Thus says YHWH my Elohim, "Feed the flock for slaughter,
5 "whose owners slaughter them and feel no guilt; those who sell them say, 'Blessed be YHWH, for I am rich'; and their shepherds do not pity them.
6 "For I will no longer pity the inhabitants of the land," says YHWH. "But indeed I will give everyone into his neighbor's hand and into the hand of his king. They shall attack the land, and I will not deliver them from their hand."
7 So I fed the flock for slaughter, in particular the poor of the flock. I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bonds; and I fed the flock.
8 I dismissed the three shepherds in one month. My soul loathed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
9 Then I said, "I will not feed you. Let what is dying die, and what is perishing perish. Let those that are left eat each other's flesh."
10 And I took my staff, Beauty, and cut it in two, that I might break the covenant which I had made with all the peoples.
11 So it was broken on that day. Thus the poor of the flock, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of YHWH.
12 Then I said to them, "If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain." So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.
13 And YHWH said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-- that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of YHWH for the potter.
14 Then I cut in two my other staff, Bonds, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Notice that there are two staffs, and each is cut in two. The second staff was called Bonds or Bands. It is the Hebrew word “chebel,” which means “twisted as a rope.” The breaking of this “rope” was symbolic of the breaking of the bond of brotherhood that had been re-established with the revealing of Joseph to his brothers in Egypt. This left both Judah and Israel in the unenviable position of being a “single fold chord”:
Eccl 4:9-12
9 Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their labor.
10 For if they fall, one will lift up his companion. But woe to him who is alone when he falls, for he has no one to help him up.
11 Again, if two lie down together, they will keep warm; but how can one be warm alone?
12 Though one may be overpowered by another, two can withstand him. And a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
But what I would like to concentrate on is the first staff that Zechariah cut in two. This staff was called “Beauty” according to KJV. The Hebrew name for the staff is Noam. This could be translated as “beauty” or as “pleasant,” but it is more clearly translated as “agreeable.” There is an obvious prophetic statement being made here: Before the bond of brotherhood between Judah and Israel were broken, the agreement between them was destroyed. I believe that this is of the utmost importance to our understanding as it may contain a remedy for the broken brotherhood.
Notice that in Zechariah 11:10 the breaking of the staff called Beauty, or Agreeable, symbolized the breaking of YHWH’s covenant with “all the peoples.” This is means that as a precursor to the breaking of brotherhood of Judah and Yisrael, YHWH broke the covenant that He had not only with them, but with all peoples. In other words, the actions of Judah and Yisrael had a negative effect on YHWH’s relationship with ALL peoples of the earth. When Judah and Yisrael were no longer agreeable, it affected all peoples. The whole earth would pay the price for their actions and attitudes.
The removal of agreement led to the breaking of brotherhood. Here is our clue. There is much talk and prayer and hope and speculation concerning the reunification of Judah and Yisrael in certain circles today. It seems, though, that every time any effort is made, those involved end up in disagreement over one matter or the other. This lack of agreement leaves the staff of brotherhood broken. So how can we repair these bonds?
First, let’s start at the beginning. Like Joseph in Egypt, before we can reveal ourselves as a brother, we must figure out who we are. Just as Judah’s “drawing near” was the turning point for Joseph, leading to his revealing himself to his brothers, so I think that hearing Judah’s story, becoming familiar with the Jews, has lead us to recognize ourselves. This is the first step. We need to recognize who we are. For more on this go to www.1bread.info/menu/html and watch the V’aYigash video.
Next, we need to seek that which we, those that believe that we are the House of Joseph, can agree upon. The key to repairing the first staff is becoming agreeable. So many people define themselves by who they are not rather than who they are. Let’s take the things that separate us off the table for a while and focus on the things that we can agree upon. I know that it’s not as exciting as debate and argument, but I think it will be even more profitable. Let’s see what we, the House of Joseph, can agree upon and seek to restore brotherhood with Judah.
I chose to post this here because SWW is “a place of meeting for anyone that believes in the one God of Israel and seeks to live according to the principles of the Hebrew Bible.” It sounds like the perfect place for this discussion.
I would like for everyone to give suggestions of what they believe we can agree upon without demands and restrictions. I’m not seeking extremely detailed answers that will further limit us, but just general thoughts. I’m not looking to formulate a doctrinal statement, just find common ground.
If folks will write in what they believe we ALL can agree upon, it will be a start. From there we can discuss and add and improve.
Maybe the SWW statement above will be all we have in agreement and maybe that’s enough. Hopefully we’ll find out.
Let's fix that stick.
Views: 0
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by ronald wayne copeland on -
Shalom I am all for it fix the stick amen. I will think of all that I have come to believe at this time. any body else? One thing I think is important is to Welcome strangers. Bro Ron
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Permalink Reply by Nicanor Lace Hulon (Leah) on -
Shalom,
We can agree that we must keep the seventh day, the Shabbat, set-apart, since YHWH clearly states it in Exodus 20.
Exodus 20:8-11
8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of YHWH your Elohim. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
11 For in six days YHWH made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore YHWH blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
(NKJ)
Many people start their Torah walk by keeping the Shabbat, so lets bring Yisrael back together by starting with the Shabbat.
Shavuah Tov,
Leah
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Permalink Reply by Web Hulon on -
Great answer girl! You do your Abba proud.
Nicanor Lace Hulon (Leah) said:Shalom,
We can agree that we must keep the seventh day, the Shabbat, set-apart, since YHWH clearly states it in Exodus 20.
Exodus 20:8-11
8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of YHWH your Elohim. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
11 For in six days YHWH made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore YHWH blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
(NKJ)
Many people start their Torah walk by keeping the Shabbat, so lets bring Yisrael back together by starting with the Shabbat.
Shavuah Tov,
Leah
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Permalink Reply by Nicanor Lace Hulon (Leah) on
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Todah Abba, I learned from the best!!
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Permalink Reply by BatYah Spiker on -
Shalom,
We can also agree that we are to observe YHWHs other set apart days as outlined in Leviticus 23.
BatYah
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Permalink Reply by Naomi Batsheva Zimmerman on -
Shalom,
Something that I think we can all agree on is that YHWH works in the most amazing ways. My parents, for example, both left behind the church because they began to question the things that they were being taught in the church but recieved no answers. That was their first step and I think we can all agree that we all have our first step. Many of us had our beginnings in the church or maybe it was somewhere else, regardless we can all agree that when we started to learn about what the Torah was and what it really meant to keep Torah that we had to leave behind those things that were once a big part of our lives. It was by that first step that we learned how to walk.
Although I have been raised in Torah for the majority of my life and can't say that I "physically" left the church I can, however, say that it was through the actions of not only my parents but those who were willing to stand up and DO something about what they were learning through the Torah that I did leave the church. If it hadn't of been for the baby steps that they took no seed would've been planted within me. It is through the actions of our first steps into Torah that we begin to plant a seed and hopefully that seed will continue to grow and feed anyone else who is is just learning to walk the Torah walk.
Naomi
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Permalink Reply by Tammy Hulon on -
I whole heartedly agree that we should observe Shabbat, the festivals, etc., but I think we still have a need of removing even more paganism from our lives. There are more idols to leave behind. As we continue to seek Torah and study, we keep finding them buried in the sand. We can't stop at just adding Shabbat, the Festivals, etc., but we must remove the paganism that is still within the House of Yosef.
Isa 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; ....
L'hitra'ot, Tami
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Permalink Reply by Remez on -
One thing we noticed on Shabbat about Zechariah 11:10-11 is that if YHWH's covenant with all peoples is broken, then there is no covenant with anyone but Israel. (Jeremiah 31 says the covenant will be renewed with the House of Israel and the House of Judah; it doesn't mention anyone else.) That means there is no longer a Noachide covenant. if someone is in covenant with YHWH at all, he is not a Gentile. He is now Israel, whether he was born Israelite or not.
A basic principle in the Torah is "equal weights and equal measures" for all who are part of the covenant.
Consider VaYiqra (Leviticus) 19:
34. "As the native among you [is treated], so shall be the alien who resides with you. Moreover, you must love him as yourself, since you yourselves were aliens in the land of Egypt. I am YHWH your Elohim.
35. "You must do no injustice in a courtroom, in measures, weights, and quantities [of liquid].
36. "You must have righteous balances, righteous weights, a righteous eyfah, and a righteous hin. I am YHWH your Elohim, who brought you out of the land of Egypt."
And D'varim (Deuteronomy) 25:
14. "You must not keep in your household [both] a large measuring-basket and a small measuring-basket.
15. "Rather, you must have an impartial, just weight; an untainted, just measuring-basket you shall have, so that your lifetime may be long on the Land that YHWH your Elohim is giving you..."
In other words, the standard is the same for us all. We don't lower it or slacken it for some and uphold it for others. That doesn't mean we should never have mercy or should expect newcomers to be perfect overnight; more is always expected of those who know better. But we all have the same rules; there are no second-class citizens in YHWH's covenant. That's one of the beauties of Torah that precludes so many of the problems that other societies have.
A level playing field. That certainly seems to be a firm foundation for agreement!
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Permalink Reply by Nicanor Lace Hulon (Leah) on
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I completely agree with everything that has been said so far. We must keep the festivals, remove the paganism, and YHWH does work in amazing ways! Just like with Balaam, and how YHWH opened the mouth of the donkey, and made it speak.
We must keep Torah, which includes all of these commands and is a witness to these things. Torah is our lives, our boundaries, and everything we are! Without Torah, Yisrael is lost, scattered. Torah is what makes us united! YHWH gave us Torah so we could have a mother, it is our marriage contract to YHWH. YHWH is our father, husband, and judge. Torah is our mother, marriage contract, and a set of YHWH's laws. Without Torah, we have no other half to everything YHWH does. We can't afford to loose Torah, our mother, because we need it to better understand our Abba, YHWH!
I hope you all agree, since that is what we're aiming for! ;)
Laiyla Tov,
Leah
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Permalink Reply by Allen on -
Quote: "The unity of the Spirit is already in place for all believers. We do not need to establish it, we just need to maintain it."
Let's use an analogy....
A designer creates a push/pull device which works well for a thousand years and then the push portion of the device breaks down. A team of engineers look at the device and determine that it could be fixed but it would take too many resources (time/effort/etc.) and that their talents would be put to better use working on their individual pursuits. Some time later an engineer attemts to once again get the push portion of the device to work. The engineers at that time are so used to only having the pull portion functioning, that they decide that there is nothing wrong with the device as it is works and leave the solitary engineer to his endeavours. The lone engineer knows that without the combined talents of all of the engineers the task can't be done.
If there is a unity of spirit then all who have this spirit should be striving for the same goal. If nothing is being accomplished with this spirit - it is dead. Just as James said "faith without works is dead". To continue on without putting effort into it is lifeless.
We need to practice love your neigbor as yourself.
Shalom,
Allen
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Permalink Reply by ronald wayne copeland on
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Shalom
Finding ourselves in a state of sin we realize our separation from our heritage and scattered in the world we began to have knowledge of living in captivity in the past and striving with the knowledge of God's Mizvots to live accordingly The G-d of all Causes sends teachers and begins the process of bring us back to the land of our inheritance, that our fathers lost. We are not responsible for that loss and we have been given another chance to live and worship Adonai in truth. The teaching gets more profound and we are torn between the first process and the separation or setting apart by the Holy Ghost teaching revealing more truths. Through travail and much study we see those around us and have compassion and patience with them realizing that this is Adonai work in the last days
Lovingly we reach out to The Jewish people and try to emulate them and learn from those who have studied and dedicated their lives to following Hashem We Watch everything in the news about Israel and try to understand how we fit into the future. Bro Ron
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Permalink Reply by Web Hulon on
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Shalom Bruce,
I appreciate your reply. I am, however, looking for what we CAN agree upon. I know of all the difficulties that stand in the way of unity and that each person has their own ideas of what is right, BUT that's not the purpose of this particular discussion. I can find that discussion on almost any religious discussion or chat on line. So it appears that your answer is "We cannot agree to be agreeable." I hereby note it as such, but I still challenge you to come with at least one profitable thing that we can agree upon. Be blessed.
Bruce Bertram said:One God is God the Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. One Lord is His appointed and anointed King of Kings Jesus the Christ or Messiah.
The part about rejection based on lack of accepting rabbinical rulings and Jewish tradition comes from much experience. I find myself between two worlds - Christianity and Judaism. I accept God's Law and also Jesus as God and Messiah and the giver of that Law. I work at understanding and adhering to all of His ways, and rejecting what gets in the way of His ways. I do not accept many Christian traditions, and there are many Jewish ones I think that are not good. It is especially not good to blindly follow pastors or rabbis. So I find myself given the left foot of fellowship from many groups in one camp or the other. Rarely can you find a group that allows a person to follow what is written purely and simply. Usually either they feel pressure to stop doing what they were doing, or they put pressure on me to do what they do. Most of the time it's not very conducive to convivial relations. I agree with your points on loving my neighbor and the lamb and lion laying down together, but the only way to accomplish these things is by God's Word. If someone doesn't want to cooperate in that, then disagreement is inevitable. Not all who wear His name are really His.
But the Word has a tendency to divide. Jesus came to bring a sword (Matthew 10:34) and His Word is sharper than any two-edged version. It makes us uncomfortable and demands change. He won't leave us alone in our sin and estrangement if He can help it; He will bring us closer or we will shrink away. He requires that we do what He has written with a whole heart, no more and no less.
Shalom
Bruce
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