HaShem Creator of all... and evil.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Melanie Carroll on September 21, 2009 at 8:41pm

Hey Hez man,
thanks for this - makes such a nice change to hear someone else express the inconsistency I see here.

That is the issue for me - how can we claim HaShem created all and there is none like him, and then deny the fact of evil as being in primary or secondary cause from Him? Why the conflict, the utter revile that HaShem could in some way be responsible - the free will argument fails because it still denies the essence of HaShems authority and utter dominion over all creation, this is not to put the blame on HaShem for my own actions - the actions are mine but the ability for me to do the wrong is an ability nevertheless given to me by HaShems own creation. And even if we move from moral evil into the realm of natural evil, the question surely is how can we deny that these actions stem from HaShems Creation - why would we deny this?

What conditions the notion of 'good' that it must preclude to such an extent the notion that bad/evil can stem from it? and that to have this 'evil' happen is in some way to reduce the 'good'? if that makes sense.. excuse me if it doesn't as it's really late here and seems to make sense to me at the minute :0)

Thanks again Hez.

Anyway as ever apologies to any as need them, thanks to those who are willing to share thought and educate me, and blessings on those who feel the need to find short sticks to beat me with! As ever real and heartfelt thanks for allowing me to join with you and please know that I accept I am very likely wrong and you are more than welcome to point out the problems.

Hezakiah Levinson said:

To quote you;"Big argument pointers and common ones Isa:45:7 and Amos 3:6, I have done some work on the word changes/misunderstanding of words used and root bases etc and get the rationale for context of calamity as opposed to evil, natural to moral and basic justice and punishment angles,
But would be interested in the much more informed responses from those here who have much greater knowledge and understanding on the word/language development etc."

There are no changes or misunderstanding on the verses. The word used is evil (raa) as in Yetzer HaRaa (The Evil Inclination).
Isaiah 45:7 Yowtseer 'owr uwbowree' choshek, `oseh shaalowmuwbowree' raa`. 'Aniy, Yahweh, `oseh kaal- 'eeleh.

Amos 3:6 'Im- yitaaqa` showpaar b`iyr w`aam lo' yecheraaduw? 'Im-tihyeh raa`aah b`iyr wa-Yahweh lo' `aasaah?

I find it utterly amazing when someone claims they believe Hashem created and controls all, yet they believe Hasatan is some free agent spreader of evil that battles G-d.

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Permalink Reply by Melanie Carroll on September 21, 2009 at 9:14pm

Hi Sandra,

Thanks for this - all been done and that is what brings me to this point.
However as the Tanakh itself points out these questions are not so simple and are the ones we constantly come back to -Job, Ecclesiastes, Isaiah, Amos, Psalms - the nature of this question revolves in the Tanakh frequently and though I may fervently believe my understanding of HaShem is perfect and perfected through his word, to not question and doubt that my understanding alone is in fact correct would be a dangerous path to walk I think.
I am mindful of the many lessons HaShem has had to teach to those so much greater than me throughout the Tanakh in pointing out that their thoughts are not his thoughts, their ways are not his ways.

Add to this for me this is not just about my understanding - but it is also about understanding something that can then be passed on and discussed clearly with others - not so I can convert them to my way of thinking (ohh the idea makes me shiver - more than me thinking like me - just ask my friends and family - that really would be a mad mad slighly bizarre and frenetic world!! ;0) but so I can share a path with them and journey a while with them. Maybe for a while at least be community together.

Hence it is that I come to the table to partake in the fellowship and beg scraps were I can.

But I do thank you for your words and your insights - and rest assured my first and last is alway HaShem alone, Yahweh my rock and my redeemer.

Sandra Inglis said:

Shalom Melanie,

First and foremost, I don't think you are going to find answers to your questions about YeHoWaH anywhere except in the Tanakh. If you are looking for truth, you need to look where you will find truth, and to my knowledge you will only find truth written in the Tanakh, any other source is truth mixed with lies. So unless you are willing to look to the Tanakh alone you will only find confusion, truth mixed with lies.

Second in order to understand what the Tanakh is saying, you need to reject all the lies and confess to YeHoWaH that you have been taught lies and that you have been deceived by those lies, and pray for His forgiveness and ask Him to show you His truth and keep you from the deception of false teaching.

Then as you read the Tanakh, He will answer your questions, if you are truly seeking Him with your whole heart and soul.

May YeHoWaH be with you, as you seek His truth, and seek to know Him, and serve and obey Him with all of your heart, mind and soul.

Shalom,

Sandra.

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Permalink Reply by Melanie Carroll on September 22, 2009 at 8:49am

Sandra,

Thanks for this but did you deliberately miss the bit where I said I only work for 6 days of the week and on the 7th I rested??
Thats the rule given in your own quotes - Sabbath means seventh day. Unfortunately in my culture that means a sunday, the work and diaries begin on a monday and end on a sunday. is it a justification - yes, I admitted that, does HaShem judge me to this way?

Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;
but the seventh day is a sabbath unto YeHoWaH thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; for in six days YeHoWaH made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore YeHoWaH blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Did you also willingly ignore the bit where I make point of the fact that I admit to at best being a foreigner in a strange land and not one of the naturalised? I am a journeyer walking a path but not one living in the land and my hope is to be a righteous one who one day becomes a welcome addition to the family and probably an adopted child, but as yet I am not a child of Israel called and completed - do I think the commandments and laws should not be kept by me - No, I uphold them as best I am able knowing that the Naohide laws cover me and call me to do the best I can and to work towards the fullness of HaShems plan.

'Speak thou also unto the children of Israel,saying: Verily ye shall keep My sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that ye may know that I am YeHoWaH who sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore, for it is holy unto you; every one that profaneth it shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to YeHoWaH; whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel for ever; for in six days YeHoWaH made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He ceased from work and rested.'

You state that you only accept the truth of the Tanakh as that only has the truth and anything else is covered by lies - yet you do not seem to accept the full truth of the Tanakh and instead cover it with your own coating and blindness, using it to presume to judge and weilding it as a sword - this is the danger I warned of that we can all fall into and yes I accept my guilt on this one too for I have realised I have done the same to you above - using the words of HaShem and his laws to point out my position.
This level of judgement and use of HaShems word to back what may be deliberate misunderstandings and attempts to put down another is in itself something frowned upon in Tanakh - it is reminiscent of the types of arguments put forward by Job's friends.
You quote law at me and yet I ask do you follow all the law, do you fully abide by all 613 commands or just some of them? - you quote Numbers 15:30 at me, but I ask did you read it, it clearly starts at 15:1 and follows through and it begins with 'When you enter the land'? also in Numbers 15:29 it clearly talks of the citizen and stranger dwelling among them! I am not dwelling in Israel much as I may hope to be able to as a righteous stranger one day in the future.

I concede I do not keep all of the laws of Moses - I admit that, does that mean I seek HaShem with less than a full heart? no and who are you to judge me? are you high priest, levite or prophet? read the book of Job, Jeremiah, Ezekiel - indeed read the books of the law and you will see that the laws you apply in your judgement of me have codecils to them for those living outside the land, for those not Children of Israel - this is to what I apply and make reference.

If you are going to condemn me then lets get it clear, Sandra, I also do wear mixed fibres and man made fibres, I do have an interesting bearing account and I have previously eaten pork but I don't like shellfish. I have never made a burnt offering and many more things, but I have strived to live a righteous life in accord with Micah 6:8-9, Hosea 12:7, Jeremiah 7 ref particularly to v4-7.

Sandra Inglis said:

Shalom Melanie,
Forgive me for thinking and suggesting that you were not seeking to know the truth with your whole heart. I came to this conclusion because of what you said concerning keeping the Sabbath. Quote: I feel I do my best to be Torah observant by working my week monday to saturday - 6 days and then on Sunday which I accept is not the Shabbat in terms of how HaShem arranged the week, I do my best to keep the concept of Seventh Day! From when I get home on Saturday night I relax and rest (and beleive me I really do - I am quite content to stay in bed for as long as I possibly can!), I graze through the day rather than cooking a sunday lunch and I don't wander far from home - mostly the back garden. I read, think, pray. and then Sunday night after 7pm I have my main meal of the day and start prepping for my week at work. So not Torah Observant but Torah Trying perhaps?
I ackowledge my faults, I ackowledge my faithlessnes - but my eternal hope is that HaShem considers our hearts and is filled with everlasting mercy for those of us less than perfect but still trying in some small way.

For me if the Torah which forms the basis of my life teaches anything it is that HaShem realises we are less than perfect and is endlessly forgiving although being strictly judging if we fail completely - but the fact that we are having this discussion surely means we are trying - and the thing to remember as well I think is that we may be sojourners in a strange land and though called to partake and observe as best we can, we are not expected to be as the natural citizens in all ways, exception is made for the foreigner until they have absorbed the lessons and culture, at which point they become in some way a naturalized. or at least thats my hope and I think it is stated somewhat in the Tanakh as well.

It seems to me from the above quote that you are not seeking the will of YeHoWaH and seeking to obey Him, but are seeking to be justified in your own eyes.

It is clear from reading Torah that YeHoWaH commanded that the Sabbath be kept on the seventh day and it is also clear from His dealings with Israel when they came out of Egypt that He does not look too kindly on those who break His Sabbath.

Exodus 16:16-30 This is the thing which YeHoWaH hath commanded: Gather ye of it every man according to his eating; an omer a head, according to the number of your persons, shall ye take it, every man for them that are in his tent.' And the children of Israel did so, and gathered some more, some less. And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating. And Moses said unto them: 'Let no man leave of it till the morning.' Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and rotted; and Moses was wroth with them. And they gathered it morning by morning, every man according to his eating; and as the sun waxed hot, it melted. And it came to pass that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one; and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. And he said unto them: 'This is that which the LORD hath spoken: To-morrow is a solemn rest, a holy sabbath unto YeHoWaH. Bake that which ye will bake, and seethe that which ye will seethe; and all that remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.' And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade; and it did not rot, neither was there any worm therein. And Moses said: 'Eat that to-day; for to-day is a sabbath unto YeHoWaH; to-day ye shall not find it in the field. Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.' And it came to pass on the seventh day, that there went out some of the people to gather, and they found none. And YeHoWaH said unto Moses: 'How long refuse ye to keep My commandments and My laws? See that YeHoWaH hath given you the sabbath; therefore He giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.' So the people rested on the seventh day.

Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;
but the seventh day is a sabbath unto YeHoWaH thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; for in six days YeHoWaH made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore YeHoWaH blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exodus 31:13-17 'Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying: Verily ye shall keep My sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that ye may know that I am YeHoWaH who sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore, for it is holy unto you; every one that profaneth it shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to YeHoWaH; whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel for ever; for in six days YeHoWaH made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He ceased from work and rested.'

Exodus 35:1-3 And Moses assembled all the congregation of the children of Israel, and said unto them: 'These are the words which YeHoWaH hath commanded, that ye should do them. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you a holy day, a sabbath of solemn rest to YeHoWaH; whosoever doeth any work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.'

Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of work; it is a sabbath unto YeHoWaH in all your dwellings.

Numbers 15:30-36 But the soul that doeth aught with a high hand, whether he be home-born or a stranger, the same blasphemeth YeHoWaH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of YeHoWaH, and hath broken His commandment; that soul shall utterly be cut off, his iniquity shall be upon him. And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it had not been declared what should be done to him. And YeHoWaH said unto Moses: 'The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.' And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died, as YeHoWaH commanded Moses.

If you are serious about seeking the will of YeHoWaH and obeying Him then you would keep His commandments.

If you are not willing to keep His commandments then you will not be willing to hear and obey anything which is written in His torah nor will He give you understanding of His word, He will leave you in your idolatry.

Ezekiel 20:37-39 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; and I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against Me; I will bring them forth out of the land where they sojourn, but they shall not enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am YeHoWaH. As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord YeHoWaH: Go ye, serve every one his idols, even because ye will not hearken unto Me; but My holy name shall ye no more profane with your gifts, and with your idols.

Leviticus 26:13 I am YeHoWaH your God, who brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bars of your yoke, and made you go upright. But if ye will not hearken unto Me, and will not do all these commandments; and if ye shall reject My statutes, and if your soul abhor Mine ordinances, so that ye will not do all My commandments, but break My covenant; I also will do this unto you: I will appoint terror over you, even consumption and fever, that shall make the eyes to fail, and the soul to languish; and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. And I will set My face against you, and ye shall be smitten before your enemies; they that hate you shall rule over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you. And if ye will not yet for these things hearken unto Me, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sins. And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass. And your strength shall be spent in vain; for your land shall not yield her produce, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruit. And if ye walk contrary unto Me, and will not hearken unto Me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. And I will send the beast of the field among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your ways shall become desolate. And if in spite of these things ye will not be corrected unto Me, but will walk contrary unto Me; then will I also walk contrary unto you; and I will smite you, even I, seven times for your sins. And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall execute the vengeance of the covenant; and ye shall be gathered together within your cities; and I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. When I break your staff of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver your bread again by weight; and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied. And if ye will not for all this hearken unto Me, but walk contrary unto Me; then I will walk contrary unto you in fury; and I also will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your sun-pillars, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you. And I will make your cities a waste, and will bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. And I will bring the land into desolation; and your enemies that dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And you will I scatter among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you; and your land shall be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste. Then shall the land be paid her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye are in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and repay her sabbaths. As long as it lieth desolate it shall have rest; even the rest which it had not in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.

YeHoWaH will not excuse unrepentant sin and will not bless those who refuse to obey His commands.

Hosea 9:17 My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto Him; and they shall be wanderers among the nations.

Malachi 2:2 If ye will not hearken, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto My name, saith YeHoWaH of hosts, then will I send the curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings; yea, I curse them, because ye do not lay it to heart.

You can not expect an answer from YeHoWaH, concerning your question regarding good and evil, if you do not fear and respect Him and obey His commands.

Psalm 111:10 The fear of YeHoWaH is the beginning of wisdom; a good understanding have all they that do thereafter; His praise endureth for ever.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of YeHoWaH is the beginning of knowledge; but the foolish despise wisdom and discipline.

Proverbs 4:4-7 And he taught me, and said unto me: 'Let thy heart hold fast my words, keep my commandments, and live; Get wisdom, get understanding; forget not, neither decline from the words of my mouth; Forsake her not, and she will preserve thee; love her, and she will keep thee. The beginning of wisdom is: Get wisdom; yea, with all thy getting get understanding.

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of YeHoWaH is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the All-holy is understanding.

You can not expect to get wisdom and understanding if you do not fear and obey the commands of YeHoWaH.

There is no point in me or anyone else trying show you the truth, in the Tanakh, if you can not accept the basics and obey the commands of YeHoWaH.

May YeHoWaH help you to see and understand these things.

Sandra.

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Permalink Reply by Melanie Carroll on September 22, 2009 at 2:05pm

Hez,

Thank you for this but did you just call me pompous??

:0)

Hezakiah Levinson said:

Ladies,ladies,please. Remember that we're here to share concepts and thoughts, not demean each other.

The Covenant of Fellowship entered in by the disciples of Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Rimanov:
Bab Metzia 58 Resolved from words of scolding and denunciation,which our Holy Rabbi has barred as transgressing the law against murder.

Siach Sarfei Kodesh:The verse in Psalms81:8:I answered thee in the secret place of thunder;I proved thee at the waters of Meribah teaches us that the L-rd will answer the prayer of the man who keeps his anger secret,though highly provoked by the other man's quarrelsomeness. (Note:Meribeh=Quarrelsomeness)

Derehk Emunah U-Maaseh Rav: The angry man fills his mouth with live coals and with needles,sharp and hard.For each angry word he utters,he deserves to be banished from holiness in shame and disgrace,and to suffer grievously until his soul is purified from its blemishes.Every man must be the master of his mouth.

Then there is my made up pseudo-law concerning discussions, Thou shall not bloviate. :)

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Permalink Reply by David on September 22, 2009 at 5:43pm

boy I take a few days off of this forum and words start flying.......LOL

It is great to see Sandra, Hez and Mel having discusions. so I think I will jump in too....

To me it seems that why bad things happen to good people and so forth is the subject. Is it the enemy doing this (flip wilson). is it our own sin/sins causing this. is it just a bad place! (wrong place wrong time)...not being in His perfect will. chance.....bad luck. not of this world but in it (dualism).

Although I do not study as I could....and have not learned all of His ways. It seems that a good place to start in this discussion would be in Gen. where Cain is told to do good and all will be good with you...or at least your face will shine.

And YHVH said toward Cain, “Why is there
burning to you, and why is your face fallen? Is there not, if you do good,
a lifting, and if you do not do good, at the opening is error—a
crouching one—and toward you is his desire, and you will rule in him.”

As far as "why is there good and evil".....Truly it does not HAVE to be this way.....and we look for the time all will be "good". and Mel, to me this is a contentious point that I also have with friends "face to face". freewill does not work for me, and God knows all and so forth does not seem to suffice in conversation......

Why did Cain murder Able?

No sticks here (even short ones)
dave

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Permalink Reply by Melanie Carroll on September 22, 2009 at 7:33pm

Hey Dave,

Greed, envy, jealousy - that's the why, its the why for the snake back in the beginning as well I think. Truth to tell its the why for most things in terms of moral evil.

But the bigger question, and if I may is that what you're getting at as well?, is why this in the first place - why is this there? whats the reason for it in the first instance for this desire and murderous intent that seems to run through us. Whats the lesson that we are to learn and/or are missing here?
and I agree fully that free will does not suffice as an argument - sure I can choose not to act upon the wrong in my heart and frequently do (and yes frequently don't - lashon hara is a downfall of mine, but one I'm constantly working on!) but it doesn't explain why the original intent lurks there - and the free will to do bad existed before the knowledge - cite the snake, so that doesn't work as a justification for the intent, but with the knowledge came the realisation of the act and the intent, the naming of it if you will.

Cain already had in his heart (or mind depending on your theology/philosophy on this one) his wrongness, after all HaShem reads mens hearts (minds) not just the acts - is that why Cains offering is rejected and Abels accepted, because already there was less than perfect offering and commitment to do right - yes he made the offering but it was a surface gesture - a tokenism? Does this not parallel with all the times that HaShem say he wants not burnt offerings but our knowledge of him, our commitment (Hosea 6:6, Jer 7:21, Psalm 50, Isa 1:12ff & Micah 6:6-8 to name a few).

I think this is it in great part - we are called to act with reverence and justice - to desire to serve the lord and to go beyond ourselves in the doing of this. This is the heart of the calling to do good, Yet that does not explain why the desire to do wrong was there from the beginning, but it does perhaps explain HaShems seemingly endless mercy and second chances!

Okay and again not sure if that made sense of any sort as its really late here and I should already be in bed! but thanks Dave for this (and for not wanting to hunt down a short stick!), it's good thinking thoughts and food for the soul! you always come up with the interesting and insightful stuff for someone always claiming the not studying and not knowing thing! :0)

Anyway as ever apologies to any as need them, thanks to those who are willing to share thought and educate me, and blessings on those who feel the need to find short sticks to beat me with! and please know that I accept I am very likely wrong and you are more than welcome to point out the problems though I do reserve the right to dispute them and put forward my position in return. :0)

David said:

boy I take a few days off of this forum and words start flying.......LOL
It is great to see Sandra, Hez and Mel having discusions. so I think I will jump in too....
To me it seems that why bad things happen to good people and so forth is the subject. Is it the enemy doing this (flip wilson). is it our own sin/sins causing this. is it just a bad place! (wrong place wrong time)...not being in His perfect will. chance.....bad luck. not of this world but in it (dualism).

Although I do not study as I could....and have not learned all of His ways. It seems that a good place to start in this discussion would be in Gen. where Cain is told to do good and all will be good with you...or at least your face will shine.

And YHVH said toward Cain, “Why is there
burning to you, and why is your face fallen? Is there not, if you do good,
a lifting, and if you do not do good, at the opening is error—a
crouching one—and toward you is his desire, and you will rule in him.”

As far as "why is there good and evil".....Truly it does not HAVE to be this way.....and we look for the time all will be "good". and Mel, to me this is a contentious point that I also have with friends "face to face". freewill does not work for me, and God knows all and so forth does not seem to suffice in conversation......

Why did Cain murder Able?

No sticks here (even short ones)
dave

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Permalink Reply by David on September 22, 2009 at 11:30pm

ok so you are asleep!.....maybe we can get an answer from a dream. LOL

Cain was asked "why is your face down (or fallen).......
We can't just assume that it was because his offering was not accepted......can we? so we assume his heart wasn't right! The question is then what made his heart (thus his face) fallen? I get greedy at times, but usually I figure it out and my face rises. it doesn't lead to physical murder. unless I chose to "turn or return"....I suppose it could. Why do some chose to not return or do good.....well you get the idea! It seems some are 'marked'......then I am back to preordained. ok so here is an idea

1.Heaven and earth
2. light and dark
3. separating upper waters from lower waters
a. dry land/ seas.
4. those that fly and those that swim.
5. dividing day light and night light
6. creates the dirt dudes...(us) to govern those that swim, fly, crawl and walk
7. separated one day to rest....blessed it and "set it apart"
8. Tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil....(choose life, i could not help it...lol) notice that the "evil" tree of knowledge was placed in the garden.....so it was not in itself bad....just not to be eaten.
9. rivers to divide the garden
10.man placed in the garden to maintain it and to guard it. (guard what?) perhaps to keep it separate?
11.rules were laid out (perhaps to be broken?) or perhaps to learn to HEAR

later on.... Gen. 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the

earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil

continually.

Gen. 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had
corrupted his way upon the earth.
Remember the soil mans job....keep things separated and guard IT?

Ok my point is....It seems clear that there is a theme of separation here. and that good and bad is a big part of this, even to a chosen separate people, along with us strangers tagging along perhaps. Being set apart to be a people involves all of us. having a diet that is not normal....Clean and Unclean, love and hate.......and so forth.

So why was there a tree of good and evil with fruit that was tasteful and a creature that enticed one to eat it....or is this just metamorphic ideas, (was there really an actual tree) like man always had a choice to be good or bad? ANYWAY, so to be perfect we must have the ability to choose to be corrupt and choose not to be. This is the essence of free choice, although I for the life of me can not see the choice, thus I am a God Fearer..... Perhaps there are those that are blind and those that see?

And what about that tree of life?
dave

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Permalink Reply by Melanie Carroll on September 23, 2009 at 6:42pm

Dave -

the words 'aargghhhh you are making my brain work and that hurts' come to mind, of course added into that are the thoughts - are you trying to get me stoned (and i dont mean that in a 12 step way)!
Cause if I put down all I sort of want to discuss and say here I am pretty sure I may well not be so welcome aboard as this is probably not a venue for discussions involving Sumer & world myths amongst some things (yes my education and interests at uni were varied - part of my mth course was on comparative religion/theologies - I got into trouble and ended up failing that part for being too anti-pluralism on my exam diss believe it or not!).
Add to that you are making me want to go look out a raft of short stories I wrote years ago, particularly the ones on the twin children that live in the house of good and evil. oh and your bit about pre-ordination made me laugh as it ties into something else I wrote years ago in the notebook entitled the 'trials of penelope bookshop!' on people asking me was I a christian everytime they wanted to slate a book I was stocking, I was working on the idea of turning to them and saying either: 'no, I'm a Jew, just like Jesus was' or alternatively 'Yes, i am a radical follower of Calvinism and beleive utterly in the doctrine of predestination and radical grace'. Both would have shut them up for 20 seconds but then the earache would have gone on much longer than just letting them moan about the book choice anyway.
So leaving all that aside heres the thoughts that came to mind - hpe they do make a tad of sense but don't promise it!

My first thing is - yes you too see the dichotomy and issue at heart here and have much the same questions as me.

My next thought is that I return to the idea that it is our notion of 'good' and what is/isn't conditioned and contained in that word/thought/ideology that is perhaps at fault here. What predisposes us to believe that HaShems good cannot contain what we would term 'evil' in it?
HaShem already knew both good and evil - he made the tree, he understood good - all he made was good, but that good had the seed/ability of 'evil' in it, the ability to become corrupt -so therefore does HaShems' 'good' not include evil in it.
The problem not being the evil itself but the way in which it is actioned, conceived, used, weilded? Hence the dualisms you reference and that are seemingly in everything.
So the evil is not in itself the problem it is the action of the evil that becomes the problem - hence Cain is an active principle whereas Abel is a passive principle of the ability. the dualism is not the problem but the action of the dualism - night is not bad and day good, both serve a purpose of equal value but the action of one as opposed to the other is what seems bad/good: absence of light - night = active principle (earth revolves away from sun) = concept of night being bad/evil, presence of light -day = passive principle (sun remains where it is and gives light all the time) = concept of day being good.
It is our acting on the principle of evil in a way that is either passive of active that is the problem, that conditions the nature, as it were. (did I mention this may not make a lot of sense as I am winging it as I go here? this reply box is a wonderful whiteboard for brainstorming! - if you see red bits on your screen tht was my brain leaking;0).

next thoughts & these ones came earlier and before the ones above which just came to me (lol).
Tree of knowledge:Good/Evil thats intelligence - before the tree escapade we was thick! hence eve and adam so damb dumb as to get suckered! they were babies and babies are thick - life still imitates HaShems creation in all its ways.
I also find it interesting that of the tree of Knowledge he says eat it and you will surely die, which the root of the word (according to my Hebrew/Greek study bible and Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary) is muwth - primitive root: to die literally or figuratlvely, but causationally means to kill!
big clue here then, we are not talking about HaShem smoting them if they eat, we are not even talking of him sentencing them necessarily to death for eating it (we cant be sure returning to dust wasn't always on the agenda! as there is the issue of us being banned from the tree of life and though we may have been welcome to eat it and live forever as thickies we can't take it as a given that such really was the plan) but given then that if we eat knowledge and get it we shall durely die, i'm leaning to the death we get is murder - the knowledge and ability to kill, to cause death and murder.
Leaning towards this also due to the fact that a bit we often overlook in this story is that we are meant to be vegetarians!!! HaShem gave us dominion over the animals but said nothing of eating them! He said we could eat all the good tree fruit and veggies and the animals could eat all the good veggies too - no mention of eating any sort of flesh which of course would involve killing! even when we get kicked out its to toil for bread to live on - grains, still veggies.
So therefore it seems to be that with intelligence aka knowledge comes the capacity to imagine and cause corruption and hence to murder. To have good and evil thoughts - to think of killing. to have the ability of self logic/reason comes corruption, but with this also comes the ability also to conciously choose to do good or bad/evil.

Whats also interesting then - if it is the ability to commit murder, to kill, to envisage destruction, violence and end life that is the issue of evil gained from getting knowledge and self reason, is that the first time we come across this action of killing is with Cain and Abel, then what do we now make of the fact that HaShem looked favourably on Abels offering - an offering that came about at the cost of an animals life as opposed to Cains grain offering??
Gets more tricky here doesnt it - is this another dualism? a hidden significance, is this about sublimation of desire - a submission if you will of our fears, wants, desires, emotions - a turning from ourselves to a higher action. Was Cains imagination more rife with the ability to imagine death and destruction, to harbor emnity and violence within himself because he had no outlet for this evil? Whereas Abel who works with the sheep and culls them, one supposes, has an outlet, or better yet an understanding of what it is to kill, to shed blood and perhaps with this comes in some way an alliviation of the violence or imagination?
or not - maybe just another dualism perhaps, a dichotomy?

So anyway there we go most of my thoughts, muddled though they be.

I look forward to any responses as I willingly concede to winging this and doing some free thinking on it - which is always a dangerous thing to do - especially if your me!

oh and one last one (almost guaranteed to make people get the short sticks out - but Dave might get a kick out if it nontheless!).
What if we were a failed experiment, lets see what happens when we do this... oops no don't like that outcome the mice are eating each other and its spreading like a tumour or fungal mold - ok nothing for it, time to neutralise the problem... but mickey the mouse is soo cute and it doesnt look like its cross infected to his cage so we can keep him. (Genesis 6:mostly 5-13) - shame though that hidden spec at the cellular level wasn't noticed and gens later we have more mutant mouses running around with a yen to eat each other.

or maybe another last one - really last one honest:
back to the baby motif from my garden thoughts - what if we really are HaShem's children, and originally he thought we were really cute babies but all along knew he would want us to grow up to be more like him, to have knowledge as he did, hence the tree, think of it as a school perhaps... but what happens is we turn toddler and like all toddlers if you tell them not to touch they want to - especially if there are older children egging them on!! - and what happened then is that we got too precocious, too big for our britches too quickly and became a tad uncontrollable and had to be punished and moved somewhere else. That would explain why we grow like we do, why babies, toddlers, children and teens are like they are - and perhaps there is yet hope for us if we ever reach maturity!

Just thoughts - I willingly accept the likelihood of the wrongness of them because you know there's a lot to be said for Ecclesiastes :0)

okay same disclaimer as before: apologies to any as need them, thanks to those who are willing to share thought and educate me, and blessings on those who feel the need to find short sticks to beat me with! as said i'll accept I am very likely wrong and you can point out the problems though I do reserve the right to defend them and put forward my position in return. :0)



David said:

ok so you are asleep!.....maybe we can get an answer from a dream. LOL
Cain was asked "why is your face down (or fallen)....... We can't just assume that it was because his offering was not accepted......can we? so we assume his heart wasn't right! The question is then what made his heart (thus his face) fallen? I get greedy at times, but usually I figure it out and my face rises. it doesn't lead to physical murder. unless I chose to "turn or return"....I suppose it could. Why do some chose to not return or do good.....well you get the idea! It seems some are 'marked'......then I am back to preordained. ok so here is an idea

1.Heaven and earth
2. light and dark
3. separating upper waters from lower waters
a. dry land/ seas.
4. those that fly and those that swim.
5. dividing day light and night light
6. creates the dirt dudes...(us) to govern those that swim, fly, crawl and walk
7. separated one day to rest....blessed it and "set it apart"
8. Tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil....(choose life, i could not help it...lol) notice that the "evil" tree of knowledge was placed in the garden.....so it was not in itself bad....just not to be eaten.
9. rivers to divide the garden
10.man placed in the garden to maintain it and to guard it. (guard what?) perhaps to keep it separate?
11.rules were laid out (perhaps to be broken?) or perhaps to learn to HEAR

later on.... Gen. 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the

earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil

continually.

Gen. 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had
corrupted his way upon the earth.
Remember the soil mans job....keep things separated and guard IT?

Ok my point is....It seems clear that there is a theme of separation here. and that good and bad is a big part of this, even to a chosen separate people, along with us strangers tagging along perhaps. Being set apart to be a people involves all of us. having a diet that is not normal....Clean and Unclean, love and hate.......and so forth.

So why was there a tree of good and evil with fruit that was tasteful and a creature that enticed one to eat it....or is this just metamorphic ideas, (was there really an actual tree) like man always had a choice to be good or bad? ANYWAY, so to be perfect we must have the ability to choose to be corrupt and choose not to be. This is the essence of free choice, although I for the life of me can not see the choice, thus I am a God Fearer..... Perhaps there are those that are blind and those that see?

And what about that tree of life?
dave

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Permalink Reply by Melanie Carroll on September 23, 2009 at 7:03pm

Hez,

Very cool principles at work here - I really must look more into the fields of jewish mysticism and philosophy!

Thanks for this.

Anyone got any book recommendations for me on both the jewish mysticism and the Jewish philosophy fields please?

Cheers!

Melanie

Hezakiah Levinson said:

David said:

boy I take a few days off of this forum and words start flying.......LOL

It is great to see Sandra, Hez and Mel having discusions. so I think I will jump in too....

To me it seems that why bad things happen to good people and so forth is the subject.

Another one from the Kabalah study group

Good and Bad Things Happen to All People

A principle that is part of the philosophical underpinnings of Kabbalah is
the recognition that G-d is not only the creator of our reality, but He also
is in control of everything in existence. This implies that all events that
occur are either caused by His command or at least allowed to occur by His
tacit approval. Of course since this is a basic point of Jewish philosophy
all intelligent Jews hold its general understanding. The mystics, however,
seem to be much more acutely aware of this aspect of truth.
The spiritual world responds to the physical world. This means
that many of the events that happen to us are a specific reaction to
something we’ve done. It may be a benefit that comes from a good deed, or a
negative consequence of a bad deed. What goes around comes around in quite
a specific way. If your spiritual composition passes through one area of
challenge you may even find yourself in a negative situation (from your
perspective) as a result of a good deed. What it means is you’ve risen to a
new level and you’re ready for a more significant challenge. From a
non-spiritual perspective a person may say, “Why is this catastrophe
happening to me?” This is like a sophomore in college going into junior year
saying, “but I passed my finals, why are they giving me even more
complicated work to do?” When you realize fully that life is meant to be a
process of spiritual growth you will accept and even welcome new challenges.
After all, being given a difficult task is actually G-d complimenting you;
He’s saying, “I know you’re ready for this.”
Any life situation may be a challenge or even a message from the
Al-mighty. The sages say that since we don’t have prophecy in our era; life
’s events are the only way G-d can speak to us. We may not understand all
the messages, but a moment’s pause to reflect on a special event in your
life may reap some interesting results. The very fact that you recognize
G-d runs the world and nothing is an accident is an elevating thought, which
can have powerful reverberations. The Zohar says that no blade of grass
grows without an angel striking and saying, “Grow.” Also, knowing that
there is a meaning to everything can be calming in the face of life’s many
adversities. Sartre and other existentialists came to the correct
conclusion that without G-d, nothing means anything. What many people don’t
realize is that with G-d everything is meaningful.
This doesn’t mean we can figure out the “why” behind all of life’s
difficulties or tragedies. If we could we’d be G-d. Some things that
happen to us are recompense from previous existences, reincarnations. It
even seems we’re not meant to know it all. This itself is one of life’s
challenges, to trust the Infinite Being when we’re confused by injustice.
G-d’s knowledge is clear, though, when you come to the point of the next
world. What pain and suffering is so terrible when it is replaced with an
eternity of pleasure? Not only that but the soul in the next world is
unencumbered by the fog of physicality. It becomes attached to G-d and will
comprehend the necessity for all that it went through.
The other side of the coin is also true. What to you may seem as
a good thing happening to a bad person may in fact be to their detriment.
The worst thing that can happen to a materialistic person is to win the
lottery. They, of course, are ecstatic. Now, however, they can waste even
more time. They can buy sixteen motorcycles, three houses, and all the
other “toys” they want. Spiritually they are wallowing in the mud. People
with less leisure time may actually be able to live a more spiritually
sensitive life. Conversely, when an evil person is deprived of the ability
to do evil, that is a tremendous spiritual benefit. As a wise woman I know
once said to a criminal in jail, “You are very lucky they stopped you from
doing more damage to your soul.”
The Talmud says that the next world is upside down. With a little
perspective or reframing you can bring some of the next world into this one.
And then we all can have a bit more clarity.

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Permalink Reply by Joanna Garrett on September 27, 2009 at 1:38pm

Hi Melanie, are you asking if the concept of non-dualism can be found in the Kabbalah? It might be helpful to consider Kabbalah as a philosophy rather than a religion. Have you read any of Ken Wilber's writings? My simple thought is that if one is able to break through the perceived barrier of dualism one would perhaps come face to face with Hashem. Of course were this to happen only you would be aware of it, those around you would remain unaware, only you would be "awake" aware of your true identity.

X Joanna

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Permalink Reply by Isaac Mozeson on September 29, 2009 at 1:27am

Dear Melanie:

Don't be timid. Your questions are valuable, and can't offend anyone.
I just added a blog about your question of evil. It was in response to a Ben Noah woman's question at the Noahide Nations Yahoo Group. If it's difficult to get it at my page, I'll place it here to you.

I'll also add that one should not worry about the book of Job. It is a very late work by a gentile which was important enough to get in the canon. On the other hand, no Jewish prophet or Biblical writer ever had a Satan-like "adversary" as a literary device. This is NOT classical Torah thinking.

In general, ONE CAN NEVER GET THEOLOGY FROM ANY BOOK BEYOND THE 5 BOOKS OF MOSES. There will never be a divine authority in Moses' league. This is what God said at the end of Deuteronomy.

There is prophecy and poetry and history after Moses. But N O matters of divine faith. One can bend and mistranslate the Hebrew prophets, or even believe in a John-Come-Lately New Improved Greek Testament, or in The Book of Morman (like my good friend). But such a believer has to trash Deuteronomy 34:10.

Blessings, Isaac

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Permalink Reply by Allen on September 29, 2009 at 8:09am

This is a Test, this is only a test of your.....

Deu 8:11 “Be on guard, lest you forget יהוה your Elohim by not guarding His commands, and His right-rulings, and His laws which I command you today, 12 lest you eat and shall be satisfied, and build lovely houses and shall dwell in them, 13 and your herds and your flocks increase, and your silver and your gold are increased, and all that you have is increased, 14 that your heart then becomes lifted up, and you forget יהוה your Elohim who brought you out of the land of Mitsrayim, from the house of bondage, 15 who led you through that great and awesome wilderness – fiery serpents and scorpions and thirst – where there was no water, who brought water for you out of the flinty rock, 16 who fed you in the wilderness with manna, which your fathers did not know, in order to humble you and to try you, to do you good in the end,

Jdg 3:1 And these are the nations which יהוה left, to try Yisra’ĕl by them, all those who had not known all the battles in Kenaʽan, 3:2 only that the generations of the children of Yisra’ĕl might know, to teach them battle, only those who before did not know them: 3 five princes of the Philistines, and all the Kenaʽanites, and the Tsiḏonians, and the Ḥiwwites who dwelt in Mount Leḇanon, from Mount Baʽal Ḥermon to the entrance of Ḥamath. 4 And they were to try Yisra’ĕl by them, to know whether they would obey the commands of יהוה, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Mosheh.

The Eternal tests people. He has expectations that some will do the right thing given the proper motivation. An example in season…

Jon 3:4 And Yonah began to go in to the city on the first day’s walk. And he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Ninewĕh shall be overthrown!” 5 And the men of Ninewĕh believed in Elohim, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 6 And the word reached the sovereign of Ninewĕh, so he arose from his throne and took off his robe, and covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes. 7 And he proclaimed and said throughout Ninewĕh, “By decree of the sovereign and his nobles: No man or beast, herd or flock, shall taste whatever – let them not eat, let them not even drink water. 8 “But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and call mightily to Elohim. And let each one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9 “Who knows whether Elohim does turn and relent, and shall turn away from the heat of His displeasure, so that we do not perish?” 10 And Elohim saw their works, that they turned from their evil way. And Elohim relented from the evil which He had said He would do to them, and He did not do it.

Is testing the motivations of men truly evil? Is this testing meant just for an individual, or is it meant to instruct multitudes in the hopes that men will turn back (shoob) from their wickedness? Does the Eternal delight in exterminating the wicked? Or does He hope they turn (shoob) from their EVIL ways?

Is our perception of evil just a lack of understanding?

TESHUVAH

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