HaShem Creator of all... and evil.

Hi Guys, Bouncing in here probably to get firmly bounced out!
But i'm looking for thoughts and insights, arguments and rationals on the issue of the creator and evil.
I know most of the arguments and rationales on the difference between natural evil and moral evil, my undergrad work was in some part on the problem of evil under the auspice of Peter Vardy so addressing it from a christian based philosophical discussion, I also did plenty of work on Christian Anthropology in under grad work and so am up and relatively clued in on Augustine and his work etc on the problem.
However despite (or perhaps even because of!) all this I have problems - really big problems because I can't deal with a dualism (especially an implied dualism in HaShem!) and I seem to keep hitting a dualism at work in the arguments.

I also have a problem (well I say it's a problem but actaully for me it isn't - but it does seem to be for lots of others! so please don't stone me - you can hit me with small sticks for 1 minute each if you can catch me but no stoning please!) in that I don't have a problem with HaShem as first, primary and sole creator of all and everything being ultimately the creator of evil as well - for what is man...
Heck, the prologue of Job shows after all that HaShem allows the adversary to do these things, because nothing is or can be done without His Permission because there is nothing greater.

Big argument pointers and common ones Isa:45:7 and Amos 3:6, I have done some work on the word changes/misunderstanding of words used and root bases etc and get the rationale for context of calamity as opposed to evil, natural to moral and basic justice and punishment angles,
But would be interested in the much more informed responses from those here who have much greater knowledge and understanding on the word/language development etc.

OK so I'm sure you can see where I am going with this - what I would really value here is if you can help me here, I am looking to know what you all think, if perhaps a new angle can be placed here - I readily admit to knowing very little on this subject from Mishnah/Gemara works (don't quite know where to start) and wonder if Kabbahlah insights might apply new insight too -
or even just any discussion and deeper insight from others understanding of Torah work itself on this subject.

So okay there we go - hope that makes some sort of sense and that i'm not offending anyone with the asking of this, but so looking forward (if not thrown out for this - and believe me this one has led to me being asked to leave more than one group or fellowship) to working on this with you all and seeing what more I can gain from all of you on here.

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Permalink Reply by Isaac Mozeson on September 29, 2009 at 9:35am

Great post, Allen:

Jonah was read in the synagogue yesterday evening, Yom Kippur.

Allen said:

This is a Test, this is only a test of your.....

Deu 8:11 “Be on guard, lest you forget יהוה your Elohim by not guarding His commands, and His right-rulings, and His laws which I command you today, 12 lest you eat and shall be satisfied, and build lovely houses and shall dwell in them, 13 and your herds and your flocks increase, and your silver and your gold are increased, and all that you have is increased, 14 that your heart then becomes lifted up, and you forget יהוה your Elohim who brought you out of the land of Mitsrayim, from the house of bondage, 15 who led you through that great and awesome wilderness – fiery serpents and scorpions and thirst – where there was no water, who brought water for you out of the flinty rock, 16 who fed you in the wilderness with manna, which your fathers did not know, in order to humble you and to try you, to do you good in the end,

Jdg 3:1 And these are the nations which יהוה left, to try Yisra’ĕl by them, all those who had not known all the battles in Kenaʽan, 3:2 only that the generations of the children of Yisra’ĕl might know, to teach them battle, only those who before did not know them: 3 five princes of the Philistines, and all the Kenaʽanites, and the Tsiḏonians, and the Ḥiwwites who dwelt in Mount Leḇanon, from Mount Baʽal Ḥermon to the entrance of Ḥamath. 4 And they were to try Yisra’ĕl by them, to know whether they would obey the commands of יהוה, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Mosheh.

The Eternal tests people. He has expectations that some will do the right thing given the proper motivation. An example in season…

Jon 3:4 And Yonah began to go in to the city on the first day’s walk. And he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Ninewĕh shall be overthrown!” 5 And the men of Ninewĕh believed in Elohim, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 6 And the word reached the sovereign of Ninewĕh, so he arose from his throne and took off his robe, and covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes. 7 And he proclaimed and said throughout Ninewĕh, “By decree of the sovereign and his nobles: No man or beast, herd or flock, shall taste whatever – let them not eat, let them not even drink water. 8 “But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and call mightily to Elohim. And let each one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9 “Who knows whether Elohim does turn and relent, and shall turn away from the heat of His displeasure, so that we do not perish?” 10 And Elohim saw their works, that they turned from their evil way. And Elohim relented from the evil which He had said He would do to them, and He did not do it.

Is testing the motivations of men truly evil? Is this testing meant just for an individual, or is it meant to instruct multitudes in the hopes that men will turn back (shoob) from their wickedness? Does the Eternal delight in exterminating the wicked? Or does He hope they turn (shoob) from their EVIL ways?

Is our perception of evil just a lack of understanding?

TESHUVAH