Here is where i get lost
TO me personally, I dont really see how both karaites or rabbanites could both correct.. To me it seems a bit of either or.
we can all throw bible versus and bible arguments to support rabbanites or karaites- ive seen them, im sure you have, so lets really leave those out(yes, sounds weird eh?).. but
why is the karaite, interpretation of a "pro karaite" passage better than a rabbinate interpretation of taht same passage.. Realistically- we all look at the same TNK really. there are incredibly smart Karaite and Rabbinical scholars (and Xian scholars too)... so it seems unwise and inappropriate to demean, or second guess motives of any group.. tis only their interpretation up for judgement.
One one hand applying the tenants of Karaite-ism to the U.S Constitution would present anarchy as at the end of the say, the sole arbiter of the disputes would be the individual- subjective.. but to me truth is objective... some sort of court, Sanhedrin, etc seems logically necessary for disputes
Moses, appointed elders to settle disputes.. Moses died, then Joshua took over.. but i would assume that elders continued to serve/be appointed. The Rabbis carry on after that according to orthodoxy. but how does a karaite see this playing out... lets say it goes to the priest and the unim and thurmin?? well, when you get the decision from the priest- how long is that decision applicable- only as long as you live? for all generations? If i as the clan head got a decision from the priest- seems to me id tell the clan, and that decision would naturally pass down through the ages.
or what is idolatry, or heresy? seems to me by karaite veiws- I could say other karaites are heretics? or what if a karaite comes along and says, "well, ____ feast requires a priest or a sacrifice, neither of which can be done, hence no need trying to keep the feast (since i cant do it according to YHVH [all or nothing idea])..?
but then, if "Orthodoxy" is correct, then what of various folk who seem rather well versed at using rabbinical sources to prove xianity http://parshanuth.blogspot.com/ being the most profuse i know of..
SO i guess, the Rabbis take Orthodoxy too far, the Karaites dont take orthodoxy far enough? (and again, as 5 ppl can look at the same verse and get 5 contradictory interpretations- im really trying to look philosophically, rather than textually)
any good books based largely on the TNK- for karaiteism, and for orthodoxy?
Views: 3
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by pilgrim on -
Jeff, you make some good points. I believe one that can be taken away is that those who do not accept the "oral" law make an oral law of their own.
So, there is no getting around an "oral" law. The question then becomes whose oral law does one accept? Judaism, probably not all sects, generally accept the Torah and the "oral" law as one revelation given to Moses. If not, then there would be no way to understand how to put on teffilin, slaughter an animal, what to place on your doorposts, etc.
The problem comes when non-Jews make claims about the oral law without understanding the Talmud. As you said there are seemingly contradictory opinions, however, there are many aspects to the Talmud.
The only way to really understand this and determine what the oral law says is to ask or study with a rabbi/Talmudic scholar. Unfortunately this type of study is not easily or quickly done, but it is a source of constant astonishment.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff on -
Okay, but with "put on tefflin," for instance- perhaps the reason the written doesn't say how, is because how is unimportant? perhaps at that time period- slaughtering an animal was just something everybody knew about.. Perhaps the Egyptians slaughtered it by getting a very sharp knife and a quick , deep slice at the neck? (not so much is my interpretation right, but why do i need orthodoxy or karaitism over this? ive personally dispelled alot of false ideas about the talmud by studying have you read the mishneh torah? i read little bits every so often- its amazing! divine or not, its clearly the work of folk who were in pursuit of the divine.
Les Ruttka said:Jeff, you make some good points. I believe one that can be taken away is that those who do not accept the "oral" law make an oral law of their own.
So, there is no getting around an "oral" law. The question then becomes whose oral law does one accept? Judaism, probably not all sects, generally accept the Torah and the "oral" law as one revelation given to Moses. If not, then there would be no way to understand how to put on teffilin, slaughter an animal, what to place on your doorposts, etc.
The problem comes when non-Jews make claims about the oral law without understanding the Talmud. As you said there are seemingly contradictory opinions, however, there are many aspects to the Talmud.
The only way to really understand this and determine what the oral law says is to ask or study with a rabbi/Talmudic scholar. Unfortunately this type of study is not easily or quickly done, but it is a source of constant astonishment.
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Permalink Reply by Nick Price on -
Jeff, good points. But I would have to negate the idea that everyone knew how HaShem wanted the Hebrews to slaughter their animals. Otherwise, He wouldn't have said to them, "in the way I have shown you." It seems that HaShem is telling them a different/new way to slaughter than the Egyptians.
Also, to say the "how is not important" goes against the detail oriented God of the universe. How is everything to Him, i.e. Torah.
Love the topic though. I have long wondered between the two groups. I think Les hit the nail on the head in that everyone has an "oral" tradition/law. We just have to decide which is the correct one.
Jeff said:
Okay, but with "put on tefflin," for instance- perhaps the reason the written doesn't say how, is because how is unimportant? perhaps at that time period- slaughtering an animal was just something everybody knew about.. Perhaps the Egyptians slaughtered it by getting a very sharp knife and a quick , deep slice at the neck? (not so much is my interpretation right, but why do i need orthodoxy or karaitism over this? ive personally dispelled alot of false ideas about the talmud by studying have you read the mishneh torah? i read little bits every so often- its amazing! divine or not, its clearly the work of folk who were in pursuit of the divine.
Les Ruttka said:Jeff, you make some good points. I believe one that can be taken away is that those who do not accept the "oral" law make an oral law of their own.
So, there is no getting around an "oral" law. The question then becomes whose oral law does one accept? Judaism, probably not all sects, generally accept the Torah and the "oral" law as one revelation given to Moses. If not, then there would be no way to understand how to put on teffilin, slaughter an animal, what to place on your doorposts, etc.
The problem comes when non-Jews make claims about the oral law without understanding the Talmud. As you said there are seemingly contradictory opinions, however, there are many aspects to the Talmud.
The only way to really understand this and determine what the oral law says is to ask or study with a rabbi/Talmudic scholar. Unfortunately this type of study is not easily or quickly done, but it is a source of constant astonishment.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff on
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Right, He is detailed oriented, but one might ask well- If he is so detailed oriented in the written about so many other things, why cant we infer/imply/guess/assume the reason He wasnt detailed on certain things, is perhaps to Him, the details arent important. While Ive never seen a karaite make a case that tizit are figurative- they do make the case that tefflin are figurative..
so- why can the karaites say "tefflin" are figurative, yet not turn around and say "tizits" are figurative too?
we all speak about things that are important to us. I just dont necessarily see what is wrong with assuming that God gave us the important stuff in the written, and the rest is "difference of understanding"?? course- religous anarchy isnt good either- but im trying to contemplate both sides here :)
Nick Price said:Jeff, good points. But I would have to negate the idea that everyone knew how HaShem wanted the Hebrews to slaughter their animals. Otherwise, He wouldn't have said to them, "in the way I have shown you." It seems that HaShem is telling them a different/new way to slaughter than the Egyptians.
Also, to say the "how is not important" goes against the detail oriented God of the universe. How is everything to Him, i.e. Torah.
Love the topic though. I have long wondered between the two groups. I think Les hit the nail on the head in that everyone has an "oral" tradition/law. We just have to decide which is the correct one.
Jeff said:
Okay, but with "put on tefflin," for instance- perhaps the reason the written doesn't say how, is because how is unimportant? perhaps at that time period- slaughtering an animal was just something everybody knew about.. Perhaps the Egyptians slaughtered it by getting a very sharp knife and a quick , deep slice at the neck? (not so much is my interpretation right, but why do i need orthodoxy or karaitism over this? ive personally dispelled alot of false ideas about the talmud by studying have you read the mishneh torah? i read little bits every so often- its amazing! divine or not, its clearly the work of folk who were in pursuit of the divine.
Les Ruttka said:Jeff, you make some good points. I believe one that can be taken away is that those who do not accept the "oral" law make an oral law of their own.
So, there is no getting around an "oral" law. The question then becomes whose oral law does one accept? Judaism, probably not all sects, generally accept the Torah and the "oral" law as one revelation given to Moses. If not, then there would be no way to understand how to put on teffilin, slaughter an animal, what to place on your doorposts, etc.
The problem comes when non-Jews make claims about the oral law without understanding the Talmud. As you said there are seemingly contradictory opinions, however, there are many aspects to the Talmud.
The only way to really understand this and determine what the oral law says is to ask or study with a rabbi/Talmudic scholar. Unfortunately this type of study is not easily or quickly done, but it is a source of constant astonishment.
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Permalink Reply by Rachel Frank on -
I agree that they aren’t both right on everything and aren't both wrong. And yes Karaites do have their own oral torah ( or rather, man developed way to caring out the commandments). Some friends of mine have visited a Karaite synagogue in Jerusalem. I asked them, "so was everything just straight out of scriptures" and the answer came back that they made up their own order of service and traditions. Think about it. Not much is said on what TO do on Shabbat, but rather we are told what not to do. Does that imply freedom to decide for ourselves? Or was there a way directed by HaShem and set in the wilderness and just not written down? Or not much is said on what to actually do at your Passover Seder. You are given a short list of things to eat and things to do but that is it. So it is only common sense that the five hour Seder we have is all right out of scripture and much is tradition and added. The other huge thing is the Temple. The fact is while I know that not everything written in the Talmud or Mishnah is Sinai inspired, it doesn’t mean that the ways to do the sacrifices and ceremonies of the Temple aren’t’ written down correctly. Fact is that without both these sources the Temple will never be build! But it doesn’t mean we don’t need to still pray for discernment as we read and study both.
I loved what you say about not questioning their motives just because we don't agree with their interpretation. I listen to many teachers ,two of which is Joseph Good and Rabbi Richman, both men of integrity and I would be so upset if I heard someone question their motives behind their teaching on scriptures. I don’t always agree with everything they say but I know their sincerity in trying to teaching only what is the truth is unquestionable and that neither of them would want their interpretations or teachings to be taken as unquestionable!! Unfortunately there is a feeling in Judaism of never questioning what you are told,( though is it possible that that has also developed in Karaite Judaism too) but it is also easy to see that the different sects of Judaism pick and choose which rabbinical source they follow and don’t question.
My personal take on the whole Karaite versus Rabbinical is summed up in a verse from Pirek Avot (which has some amazingly wise statements), “Who is wise, he who learns from every man”. I read that statement early in my torah walk and it has challenged me many times, not just in the Karaite, vs. Rabbinical but also in whether I toss all the teachers I use to listen to when in Christianity. We serve an amazing God and thankfully He doesn’t require us to arrive at the place of totally true doctrines, before He chooses to reveal truth to us that we can then share with others!
Also just so you know, Judaism does consider the Karaites heretics of sorts. It was an official ruling I remember discussing with a rabbi who taught a course on bible interpretation that I did. They are essentially viewed the same as Jews who believe Yeshua is the Messiah (as non-Jews). The interesting thing was this Rabbi (who is ver well respected in Israel) disagreed with that, and held the view that if your ancestors stood at Mt Sinai or if you have come to cling to Hashem and made conversion (or someone in your line did) then you can’t quite being a Jew!
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Permalink Reply by Rachel Frank on
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THe thing is that the "important stuffin the written" is for the sometimes undo-able. The two things in the Torah that God said forever and ever about were Temple Things and Land issues. Temple things are the most vaguely discribed in Scriptures, and from what I have understood from teachers like Joe and Rabbi Richman, it isn't possible to do any of it nor even build a temple from what is written. So while what is written is SOOOO important, and nothing should change or supercede it, commandments like the Temple commandment will never be done without more instruction then what is written. atleast that is my understanding.
Jeff said:Right, He is detailed oriented, but one might ask well- If he is so detailed oriented in the written about so many other things, why cant we infer/imply/guess/assume the reason He wasnt detailed on certain things, is perhaps to Him, the details arent important. While Ive never seen a karaite make a case that tizit are figurative- they do make the case that tefflin are figurative..
so- why can the karaites say "tefflin" are figurative, yet not turn around and say "tizits" are figurative too?
we all speak about things that are important to us. I just dont necessarily see what is wrong with assuming that God gave us the important stuff in the written, and the rest is "difference of understanding"?? course- religous anarchy isnt good either- but im trying to contemplate both sides here :)
Nick Price said:Jeff, good points. But I would have to negate the idea that everyone knew how HaShem wanted the Hebrews to slaughter their animals. Otherwise, He wouldn't have said to them, "in the way I have shown you." It seems that HaShem is telling them a different/new way to slaughter than the Egyptians.
Also, to say the "how is not important" goes against the detail oriented God of the universe. How is everything to Him, i.e. Torah.
Love the topic though. I have long wondered between the two groups. I think Les hit the nail on the head in that everyone has an "oral" tradition/law. We just have to decide which is the correct one.
Jeff said:
Okay, but with "put on tefflin," for instance- perhaps the reason the written doesn't say how, is because how is unimportant? perhaps at that time period- slaughtering an animal was just something everybody knew about.. Perhaps the Egyptians slaughtered it by getting a very sharp knife and a quick , deep slice at the neck? (not so much is my interpretation right, but why do i need orthodoxy or karaitism over this? ive personally dispelled alot of false ideas about the talmud by studying have you read the mishneh torah? i read little bits every so often- its amazing! divine or not, its clearly the work of folk who were in pursuit of the divine.
Les Ruttka said:Jeff, you make some good points. I believe one that can be taken away is that those who do not accept the "oral" law make an oral law of their own.
So, there is no getting around an "oral" law. The question then becomes whose oral law does one accept? Judaism, probably not all sects, generally accept the Torah and the "oral" law as one revelation given to Moses. If not, then there would be no way to understand how to put on teffilin, slaughter an animal, what to place on your doorposts, etc.
The problem comes when non-Jews make claims about the oral law without understanding the Talmud. As you said there are seemingly contradictory opinions, however, there are many aspects to the Talmud.
The only way to really understand this and determine what the oral law says is to ask or study with a rabbi/Talmudic scholar. Unfortunately this type of study is not easily or quickly done, but it is a source of constant astonishment.
-
Permalink Reply by Sinai Servant on -
I have very much enjoyed the various opinions and positions expressed on this highly challenging and valid topic. Many of us and if not all of us at one time or another have posed questions like: just who is right? Who has the authority to rule the intent of what the Torah teaches? Which group or individuals hold the keys of interpretation and acceptable practice?
Because you have already touched most of the areas I had questions in, I will keep this very brief. There are as many answers to the questions above as there are colors of the rainbow depending on who you talk to. I do not profess to follow any one group or individual, although I agree and disagree with some of the some of the time.
I often read what I would call a valid argument from different sources. Sometimes the Karaites make more sense and sometimes the Orthodox do. But, who is to tell us who is right? No longer having priest or Temple puts us in a kind of limbo state. This for me can be a real wilderness experience. I have read some on the succession of authority as in Aaron to his sons and them to their sons. From Moshe to Joshua and so on. We are told that the people were to listen to them. However, they must carry the authority of the one who commissioned them. Of course first and foremost that is the Almighty himself, but they must be of the same spiritual DNA as their predecessor.
Do they follow the commands of the covenant given at Sinai? Do the lead the people and teach them to shema the Torah and the prophets? Have they added traditions that take prime importance over that of the Torah and this kind of thing. How do we know if what we understand to be truth is in fact correct? I have been asked this question: If I am not following the Karaites, the Orthodox or any of the well known sages and elders of renown memory, how can I interpret scripture?
Good question and I am throwing this out there for others to comment on because I don’t have any hard and fast answers other than to say this; when unsure of an exact meaning I of course pray for direction. I have even done the “ask the Rabbi” with various groups and ultimately ended up with different opinions just the same.
Now every book of the Tanakh speaks about a journey of faith. We hear, and we step out. There have been times when I did this only to find out I was wrong. But isn’t this the way we learn? I don’t personally hold to Talmud, Mishneh or Christian writings and I have read much negative stuff on them and by and large agree with the comments. I cannot follow the Talmud as my guide especially when you consider that much of it is an exercise in Rabbis arguing and disagreeing on the finer points of the law. Much debate at this level only leads to deeper confusion.
However, having said that there is some really good stuff in the Talmud. Things that give a different and fresh perspective which we need from time to time to blow the cobwebs off ourselves and stay tuned. I in fact have developed over time my own little Talmud. We know Talmud has a lot of what is referred to as fence laws; well I have some of them too. For instance, on Shabbat I always place my wallet (cash intact) in a particular place. If my wife and I go for a walk which we often do, I have no cash on me and this helps protect from monetary transactions on Shabbat. This is a fence law for myself so I don’t commit an offence. Of course the Karaites, the orthodox, the progressives and so on still disagree on points. So do you and I and others who have waded in on this subject. At the end of the day it seems to me that this is a very personal thing at the individual level of exercising one’s faith. Simple obedience as best as we can understand is a good place to start. I don’t need a group of Rabbi’s armed with leather Talmud’s to tell me what the interpretation of “depart from evil means” I just simply need to obey it in it’s simplest form first.
Some feel that it is important to follow a group or individual. I love my brother Judah and I want to feel I am accepted by them and that I am part of the bigger picture, but do we give up our individual expression of faith and become almost like trained seals? What thoughts do you guys have?
Sinai Servant
Rachel Frank said:I agree that they aren’t both right on everything and aren't both wrong. And yes Karaites do have their own oral torah ( or rather, man developed way to caring out the commandments). Some friends of mine have visited a Karaite synagogue in Jerusalem. I asked them, "so was everything just straight out of scriptures" and the answer came back that they made up their own order of service and traditions. Think about it. Not much is said on what TO do on Shabbat, but rather we are told what not to do. Does that imply freedom to decide for ourselves? Or was there a way directed by HaShem and set in the wilderness and just not written down? Or not much is said on what to actually do at your Passover Seder. You are given a short list of things to eat and things to do but that is it. So it is only common sense that the five hour Seder we have is all right out of scripture and much is tradition and added. The other huge thing is the Temple. The fact is while I know that not everything written in the Talmud or Mishnah is Sinai inspired, it doesn’t mean that the ways to do the sacrifices and ceremonies of the Temple aren’t’ written down correctly. Fact is that without both these sources the Temple will never be build! But it doesn’t mean we don’t need to still pray for discernment as we read and study both.
I loved what you say about not questioning their motives just because we don't agree with their interpretation. I listen to many teachers ,two of which is Joseph Good and Rabbi Richman, both men of integrity and I would be so upset if I heard someone question their motives behind their teaching on scriptures. I don’t always agree with everything they say but I know their sincerity in trying to teaching only what is the truth is unquestionable and that neither of them would want their interpretations or teachings to be taken as unquestionable!! Unfortunately there is a feeling in Judaism of never questioning what you are told,( though is it possible that that has also developed in Karaite Judaism too) but it is also easy to see that the different sects of Judaism pick and choose which rabbinical source they follow and don’t question.
My personal take on the whole Karaite versus Rabbinical is summed up in a verse from Pirek Avot (which has some amazingly wise statements), “Who is wise, he who learns from every man”. I read that statement early in my torah walk and it has challenged me many times, not just in the Karaite, vs. Rabbinical but also in whether I toss all the teachers I use to listen to when in Christianity. We serve an amazing God and thankfully He doesn’t require us to arrive at the place of totally true doctrines, before He chooses to reveal truth to us that we can then share with others!
Also just so you know, Judaism does consider the Karaites heretics of sorts. It was an official ruling I remember discussing with a rabbi who taught a course on bible interpretation that I did. They are essentially viewed the same as Jews who believe Yeshua is the Messiah (as non-Jews). The interesting thing was this Rabbi (who is ver well respected in Israel) disagreed with that, and held the view that if your ancestors stood at Mt Sinai or if you have come to cling to Hashem and made conversion (or someone in your line did) then you can’t quite being a Jew!
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Permalink Reply by Jeff on
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You know, I once thought that Orthodox Judiasm, was rather monolithic. square peg in square hole, case closed. But as I began reading and searching further, ive found a few different things. there are the Chassidics- which are relatively new on the field, and were at one time considered heretical- or very close to it- by normitive orthodoxy. Today, you have some messianic chassidic folk (they like their rebbe). you have haredi, and you have just plain orthodox.
but you appear to have different veiws as to the scope of the oral law- how much of what we think is oral law- is actually "law" for instance
their veiw- is essentially all you need is to read the torah... there are some, who reject as eternally binding- all laws passed and given by rabbis after the last Sanhedrin fell apart.... to me, im finding a less monolithic orthodoxy than i had assumed.... but yet, they all have something in common- the oral law.. (read the two links on the "Mishneh Torah- the complete reinstatement of the oral law ")
heres a youtube playlist- who sort of explains the Oral law, and counter karaite stuff
http://www.youtube.com/user/omedyashar#grid/user/5D030D2F42864DF8
and
http://www.youtube.com/user/geoasher023 (who is a rabbi- albeit young).
I also got the opinion from my xian days and studying that time period- that the general populace favored the pharrisee party over sadducee (karaite-ish)???
Sinai Servant said:I have very much enjoyed the various opinions and positions expressed on this highly challenging and valid topic. Many of us and if not all of us at one time or another have posed questions like: just who is right? Who has the authority to rule the intent of what the Torah teaches? Which group or individuals hold the keys of interpretation and acceptable practice?
Because you have already touched most of the areas I had questions in, I will keep this very brief. There are as many answers to the questions above as there are colors of the rainbow depending on who you talk to. I do not profess to follow any one group or individual, although I agree and disagree with some of the some of the time.
I often read what I would call a valid argument from different sources. Sometimes the Karaites make more sense and sometimes the Orthodox do. But, who is to tell us who is right? No longer having priest or Temple puts us in a kind of limbo state. This for me can be a real wilderness experience. I have read some on the succession of authority as in Aaron to his sons and them to their sons. From Moshe to Joshua and so on. We are told that the people were to listen to them. However, they must carry the authority of the one who commissioned them. Of course first and foremost that is the Almighty himself, but they must be of the same spiritual DNA as their predecessor.
Do they follow the commands of the covenant given at Sinai? Do the lead the people and teach them to shema the Torah and the prophets? Have they added traditions that take prime importance over that of the Torah and this kind of thing. How do we know if what we understand to be truth is in fact correct? I have been asked this question: If I am not following the Karaites, the Orthodox or any of the well known sages and elders of renown memory, how can I interpret scripture?
Good question and I am throwing this out there for others to comment on because I don’t have any hard and fast answers other than to say this; when unsure of an exact meaning I of course pray for direction. I have even done the “ask the Rabbi” with various groups and ultimately ended up with different opinions just the same.
Now every book of the Tanakh speaks about a journey of faith. We hear, and we step out. There have been times when I did this only to find out I was wrong. But isn’t this the way we learn? I don’t personally hold to Talmud, Mishneh or Christian writings and I have read much negative stuff on them and by and large agree with the comments. I cannot follow the Talmud as my guide especially when you consider that much of it is an exercise in Rabbis arguing and disagreeing on the finer points of the law. Much debate at this level only leads to deeper confusion.
However, having said that there is some really good stuff in the Talmud. Things that give a different and fresh perspective which we need from time to time to blow the cobwebs off ourselves and stay tuned. I in fact have developed over time my own little Talmud. We know Talmud has a lot of what is referred to as fence laws; well I have some of them too. For instance, on Shabbat I always place my wallet (cash intact) in a particular place. If my wife and I go for a walk which we often do, I have no cash on me and this helps protect from monetary transactions on Shabbat. This is a fence law for myself so I don’t commit an offence. Of course the Karaites, the orthodox, the progressives and so on still disagree on points. So do you and I and others who have waded in on this subject. At the end of the day it seems to me that this is a very personal thing at the individual level of exercising one’s faith. Simple obedience as best as we can understand is a good place to start. I don’t need a group of Rabbi’s armed with leather Talmud’s to tell me what the interpretation of “depart from evil means” I just simply need to obey it in it’s simplest form first.
Some feel that it is important to follow a group or individual. I love my brother Judah and I want to feel I am accepted by them and that I am part of the bigger picture, but do we give up our individual expression of faith and become almost like trained seals? What thoughts do you guys have?
Sinai Servant
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Permalink Reply by Elaine Jackson on -
Hi Jeff my name is Elaine I too am searching for truth and restoring Abrahamic faith. I don't think anyone has the complete truth we are all searching and what i believe today i may not believe in 6 months time. I think sincerity and a love for G-d and fellow man are important issues too. I belong to a 12 step program also and one of the things I have been taught is to take what you need or believe and leave the rest. I have found profound truth in rabbinical teachings particularly on the stance of works and "tikkun olam" (hope I spelt that correctly) since I heard that teaching I have become a nurse and am now in the job i love and more importantly the one Ha Shem wants me to be doing. I am a practical person so I am not into hairy fairy stuff. I learn the most from practical stuff that tell me how to live my life and become a better person. I have found this by listening to people from both Rabbinical Judaism and Karaite when people say they have the whole truth i cringe because that speaks to me of arrogance and G-d looks at our heart and knows if we are searching or not for truth. shalom Elaine
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Permalink Reply by Jeff on
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Thank you for your response Elaine. i dont mind the "hairy fairy" stuff it just important for my intellect/mind to latch on first, before i add the extra.. So that faith is intellectual at its core, and the rest is decoration. or heart following my mind so to speak? At anyrate, I know of a rabbi or 2, who would say "that is awesome elaine, please- lets talk- no hairy pairy." they would typicaly point you to the Mishneh Torah (see some of the links i posted a post or 2 up)... and say- there you go- just the facts, just the interpretations and understandings the average person needs to know. and btw- this is over periods of time.. you dont suddenly master it when you convert.
p.s there is a one volume edition of the Mishneh Torah btw, compared to 70 tractates or whatnot in the talmud.
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In general, something else ive stumbled upon, the book isnt published yet, but there is supposed to be a book coming out this year (its in the proof reading stages) that essentially is a defence, or proof of the oral law, from the TNK, and just logic.. no propaganda of sorts, just the "written basis" for the "oral law"... the publisher should be http://www.lightcatcherprod.com/index.shtml but its not out yet :)
Elaine Jackson said:Hi Jeff my name is Elaine I too am searching for truth and restoring Abrahamic faith. I don't think anyone has the complete truth we are all searching and what i believe today i may not believe in 6 months time. I think sincerity and a love for G-d and fellow man are important issues too. I belong to a 12 step program also and one of the things I have been taught is to take what you need or believe and leave the rest. I have found profound truth in rabbinical teachings particularly on the stance of works and "tikkun olam" (hope I spelt that correctly) since I heard that teaching I have become a nurse and am now in the job i love and more importantly the one Ha Shem wants me to be doing. I am a practical person so I am not into hairy fairy stuff. I learn the most from practical stuff that tell me how to live my life and become a better person. I have found this by listening to people from both Rabbinical Judaism and Karaite when people say they have the whole truth i cringe because that speaks to me of arrogance and G-d looks at our heart and knows if we are searching or not for truth. shalom Elaine
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Started by Leo333. Last reply by Leo333 May 8.
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