One reason why it is SO difficult for Ephramites to be accepted as Israeli citizens...
Many people have been struggling with the concept of why Israel can't/won't readily admit someone (for citizenship) who describes a connection to the Hebrew people. See the article below, and you'll see two things:
1. The answer to what I mentioned above..
2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult) very tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in the entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which will be accepted in Israel).
The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian missionary from among sincere, potential converts. Hmmmm...maybe there's a 'job opportunity' here! I will be there worst nightmare....
Hanoch
Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts
by Hillel Fendel
The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts to Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus – and are active missionaries.
Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and anti-assimilation Yad L’Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly “shocked” at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.
An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the conversion rolls.
Yad L’Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses of more than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during and after their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then accepted as members of religious communities, and their children were accepted into religious schools.
The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in the legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members.
1. The answer to what I mentioned above..
2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult) very tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in the entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which will be accepted in Israel).
The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian missionary from among sincere, potential converts. Hmmmm...maybe there's a 'job opportunity' here! I will be there worst nightmare....
Hanoch
Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts
by Hillel Fendel
The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts to Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus – and are active missionaries.
Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and anti-assimilation Yad L’Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly “shocked” at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.
An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the conversion rolls.
Yad L’Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses of more than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during and after their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then accepted as members of religious communities, and their children were accepted into religious schools.
The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in the legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Allen on -
This weeding out process is tov and necessary. Until Ephraim gives up all of its idols there can be no reconciliation or solid moves towards solidarity with our brother Yehudah.
It never ceases to amaze me how stubborn Ephraim is about giving up his idols. Many have questioned the validity of Christian doctrines, studied the matters out, exposed the lies and walked away from them. Whether it started with Xmass – the celebrated birth of the Sun in the middle of winter, Easter – the springtime pagan fertility games, SUNday worship –which set the stage for men to exalt themselves, eating pork, shellfish, the purgatory doctrine, the trinity fabrication, praying to the dead, celibacy for the priests, the immaculate conception of Miriam (Mary), Etc.
In order for Ephraim to have any credibility with Judah, we must be united. To be united, all of the false doctrines (idols) must be thrown out by Ephraim, especially the most treasured idol of all.
The divinity of Yah’shua!
Until Ephraim sees through this creation of Christianity, there can be no reconciliation.
Why is this? Because it’s against torah! We are to have nothing or no-one before the face of our Elohim.
Judah knows that proclaiming a man to be the Almighty is wrong and they rightly reject it and all who believe it. They may patronize, but will never accept idol worshipers into their midst because they know that a little leaven, leavens the whole lump.
As a people we have to rid ourselves and teach others of all those things that keep us from the restoration.
Try to prove it! – (no fair twisting words and context)
Did Yah’shua ever claim to be of divine origin?
Did his followers ever proclaim that he was of divine origin?
Do the prophecies in the TaNaKh proclaim that the messiah would be of divine origin?
How many times in the apostolic writings is Yah’shua called a man & by whom?
Did Yah’shua pray to himself?
Who did Yah’shua call his Elohim?
What was the message Yah’shua brought & to whom?
Does being a mashiach, shaliach, navi, or malach mean you are the Almighty in the flesh?
This fabrication was built not on the words of Yah’shua, but by the desire of men to have power and control over large groups of people. This has worked very well, even up to this day. When you drive down the road next week, pay attention to the multitudes of Christian denominations as you are driving. Think about what these establishments are teaching. Are they not teaching lawlessness, based not on the words of Yah’shua, but the twisted words of Paul?
Think about this: what’s in it for them? One thing that struck me above everything when attending the various churches was that I was always made to feel guilty. I felt guilty if I wasn’t able to put a substantial amount of money on the plate. That, More than anything separated me from Christianity. I saw that the primary goal of the vast majority of these organizations was to make money. Make money off a tried & true system that had been established thousands of years ago. Yes, all of this idolatry is brought to you by the same organization that: sold holy relics, holy water, get out of purgatory free (for a price of course), the inquisitions, as well as all of the doctrines I listed earlier in this diatribe, etc.
Conclusion (finally!): This is what the restoration is hinged upon. Judah can’t accept us until we show them we don’t & won’t accept that YHWH is a man, or any of the other fabrications of the Christian organization.
Learn it & teach it! The message must go out, the restoration is depending on it.
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Mat 26:39 And going forward a little, He fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I desire, but as You desire.”
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour יהושע cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Ěli, Ěli, lemah sheḇaqtani?” that is, “My Ěl, My Ěl, why have You forsaken Me?”
Acts 2: 22“Men of Yisra’el, hear these words: Yah’shua of Natsareth, a Man from Elohim, having been pointed out to you by mighty works, and wonders, and signs which Elohim did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know,
Rom 5:15 But the favourable gift is not like the trespass. For if by the one man’s trespass many died, much more the favour of Elohim, and the gift in favour of the one Man, Yah’shua Messiah, overflowed to many.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one Elohim, and one Mediator between Elohim and men, the Man Messiah Yah’shua,
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Permalink Reply by David on -
Hey Allen,
You quoted "1Ti 2:5 For there is one Elohim, and one Mediator between Elohim and men, the Man Messiah Yah’shua,"
Notice that further on in 1 Ti 3:16 ..."And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
To me this reeks of replacement theology.....
I could go on and paste much of the story of Moses such phrases such as .....and Moses went up to God... And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God.....
I could cut and paste the whole Torah here but Why?.....we all have a copy...lol
It could be that this "one Mediator" idea here is taken out of context in your post. but with out twisting or putting a spin on what you are saying, I look forward to something such as is recorded 1st Kings 18.... And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD [be] God, follow him: but if Baal, [then] follow him. And the people answered him not a word......
and again......
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Above all....Allen, this sort of dialogue is perhaps a way of hashing out this problem of disunity among us and Judah. Fortunately, we have met and talked face to face and I feel as though we can discuss these matters on this medium (SWW). What say you?
as I see it
dave
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Permalink Reply by Allen on
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Above all....Allen, this sort of dialogue is perhaps a way of hashing out this problem of disunity among us and Judah. Fortunately, we have met and talked face to face and I feel as though we can discuss these matters on this medium (SWW). What say you?
Shalom David,
Of course we should discuss. As a disclaimer I have posted before about Paul: I have a love/hate relationship with his letters to the various assemblies he was teaching. If anything he writes goes against torah - It's out. I posted the Timothy verse to show that at least Paul had the understanding that Yah'shua was a man and not some divine being who was walking the earth. The Romans 5:15 also shows this perspective.
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Permalink Reply by David on
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yes Allen, I did realize that is what you were getting at by quoting Paul (if he was the author.....) but whoever wrote this letter stating among other ideas was that God became flesh! The way I see it is that this may be One reason why it is SO difficult for Ephramites to be accepted as Israeli citizens...which is the topic of this discussion.
As I write this I am waiting on Sherry to get ready as we have a date with another couple.......so...until later.
Of course Yah'shua was a man......and also (as I have heard others state) Just a prophet! JUST a prophet, wow as if that is a lite description. Now I am sending mixed messages. sorry
dave
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Permalink Reply by Allen on
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Great place to start David.
We see references to Yah'shua being a prophet in Matthew 13 & 21, Luke 24, John 1, and Acts 3 & 7.
Let's start with a question:
Do the words & actions of this man/prophet meet the qualifications in Deuteronomy 18?
18‘I shall raise up for them a Prophet like you out of the midst of their brothers. And I shall put My Words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19‘And it shall be, the man who does not listen to My Words which He speaks in My Name, I require it of him.
And also a comparison would probably be helpful:
Looking at the words & actions of EliYah the prophet how do they compare to the words and actions of Yah'shua?
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Permalink Reply by Allen on
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How was he perceived by those around him....
In the apostolic writings (B'rit Chadasha) Yah'shua was called a man and a prophet.
He fit the man category quite well. Especially his somewhat gruff way of dealing with those who twisted the torah to suit their own desires.
He appears to fit the prophet category, performing similar feats to EliYah, such as raising the dead, feeding many, etc. which seems to allow for him to be labeled a prophet.
Let's ask the question: Is there anything in the TaNaKh that would keep Yah'shua from bearing this title?
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Permalink Reply by Allen on
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There doesn't appear to be any disqualifictions for Yah'shua to be called a prophet.
We know that Yah'shua was a man. What about the title "son of man"? Both Yehezkel & Daniel the prophets are called "son of man". Is it presumptuous for him to use this title for himself?
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Permalink Reply by David on
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Hey Allen.....Sorry I haven't taken the time to reply on this subject.
My Reference was to how some refer to Yah'shua as JUST a prophet......(to help with what I mean) was Isiah JUST a prophet? was Ezekiel JUST a Prophet?
BUT......Did Yah'shua regather the tribes of Israel and Judah to the Land? I guess you could argue that "spirtitualy he did(or will do) by way of the religion attributed to his name......In other words, What was Yah'shua's mission? and was he successful? If he was successful then yes he was prophetic....iF he wasn't succesful...well, the proofs in the pudding!
dave
Allen said:There doesn't appear to be any disqualifictions for Yah'shua to be called a prophet.
We know that Yah'shua was a man. What about the title "son of man"? Both Yehezkel & Daniel the prophets are called "son of man". Is it presumptuous for him to use this title for himself?
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Permalink Reply by Web Hulon on -
Shalom Kim,
No argument. Seeing ANY man as YHWH is idolatry, but seeing a man as mashiakh, anointed, is not idolatry, or in line with idol worship. Actually Aharon was described as Cohen Mashiakh. David was mashiakh and so was Shlomo and most of the other kings. David describes Shaul as mashiakh. Even the Persian king Koresh (Cyrus) is called YHWH's mashiakh in Isaiah.
Of course you said THE Messiah. This is also not idolatry. Most idolotrous systems have no concept of Messiah. To understand Yahoshua as THE Messiah of his time is quite accurate because he did come to set the gathering in motion.
Who will be Mashiakh in the age to come? Lots of folks guess but no one really knows. Whoever he or she is, they will be human and a kinsman/woman of Yisrael. Who knows, maybe the next Messiah will be a corporate Messiah. Guess we'll just have to work and see.
Web
Kim Molnar said:I can agree that holding onto Yeshua as G-d or as the Messiah is in line with idol worship. I pray directly to YHVH & no other and believe in no other Savior save YHVH; however, I don't believe seeing him as a teacher or prophet is equivalent to idol worship. As we cannot judge which words have been added, doctored, or mistranslated, I don't think we can judge the man that he was or call him a false prophet. I have asked myself also why his words not have been preserved correctly (with all the contradictions they have not been) if he were a true prophet, but why do you think that YHVH preserved his words at all and allowed them to spread to the whole world? The words of other so-called messiahs have not been preserved and spread worldwide. The ways of HaShem are simply not our ways. We can only see through a glass darkly.
Kim
Sandra Inglis said:Hi Kim,
I appreciate what you are saying but how do we really know what are the authenticated words of Yah'shua and what are not? You may say that only his words which line up with Torah are authentic, but how do we really know what he actually taught? The only record of his words are in the Christian writings. On what basis do you claim that he was a Torah observant Jew. I believe he was a Jew and he claimed to observe and obey Torah, but the only record we have of his words show that he taught some things which were against Torah. Which of his words do we accept as being his words and which do we reject? We can easily determine which words line up with Torah if we study Torah, but without the Torah we would not know which of his words were true and which were false.
You see Yah'shua as you want to see him, not as the records show him to be. If we go by what is written in the Christian writings we have to conclude that he was a false prophet. There were many false prophets in Israel. How do you know Yah'shua was not one of them? Just because a person is a Jew does not automatically make him Torah observant or mean that what he teaches is truth. YeHoWaH gave us the means to tell if a person was a true or false prophet, and if we judge Yah'shua by his words we find him to be a false prophet according to YeHoWaH's instruction for determining who is a true prophet and who is a false prophet. We have no way of knowing if what is recorded in the Christian writings concerning what he said is true or false. You can either accept his testimony in the Christian writings as they are, or reject his testimony, but to take some of what he said and reject the rest because it does not line up with Torah is making a judgment on only half the evidence.
If Yah'shua were truly a prophet of YeHoWaH then YeHoWaH would have preserved his word as truth, just as he has done with the word of the Prophets in the Tanakh. Closing your eyes to the evidence because you do not like what you see is falsifying evidence. You have to look at the whole picture to find the truth.
I see Yah'shua a a stumbling block to people coming out of a false religion, a stumbling block which prevents them from seeing the truth which is written in the Tanakh. Until people see that Yah'shua is an idol, then they will not let go. Worship of Yah'shua is idolatrous worship. Holding on to Yah'shua is holding on to the idols of ones heart and not turning to YeHoWaH with all of your heart. As Elijah said, 'How long halt ye between two opinions? If YeHoWaH be God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.'
May YeHoWaH be with us as we seek to know and follow Him.
Shalom,
Sandra.
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Permalink Reply by Allen on
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Quote: It was not until I rejected Jesus and his teachings and the teachings of the New Testament that I found the truth which is written in the Tanakh.
Sandra,
So I can better understand your perspective...
Is there nothing in the words of Yah'shua that you find of value, or are you using a blanket statement?
May I ask you when you were a christian, what or whom had the greatest impact on your turning to torah? Or did you never in your time as a christian find anything of value in what you were taught?
Allen
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Permalink Reply by Kim on -
Web,
I apologize I was rushing to leave when I posted earlier. I should have waited till I had more time. I will be more careful in the future. I did not relate my thoughts and beliefs clearly. I was referring to those who seem to put the Messiah before HaShem and that pray to Yeshua as a mediator between themselves and HaShem as being in line with idolatry. HaShem is my Savior and salvation is through turning to Him with our whole heart. I agree that putting the messiah or The Messiah in true Hebrew context and believing that Yeshua is messiah/Messiah is not the same as idolatry.
He was sent for a purpose: to prepare the Way for HaShem (by turning our hearts back to Him) in the wilderness (of our exile).
Kim
Please see my first post on this discussion. I believe HaShem's spirit was placed upon Yeshua. That being said he was anointed. He was sent to start the gathering of the Lost Sheep and others to return to HaShem and His Torah.
Web Hulon said:Shalom Kim,
No argument. Seeing ANY man as YHWH is idolatry, but seeing a man as mashiakh, anointed, is not idolatry, or in line with idol worship. Actually Aharon was described as Cohen Mashiakh. David was mashiakh and so was Shlomo and most of the other kings. David describes Shaul as mashiakh. Even the Persian king Koresh (Cyrus) is called YHWH's mashiakh in Isaiah.
Of course you said THE Messiah. This is also not idolatry. Most idolotrous systems have no concept of Messiah. To understand Yahoshua as THE Messiah of his time is quite accurate because he did come to set the gathering in motion.
Who will be Mashiakh in the age to come? Lots of folks guess but no one really knows. Whoever he or she is, they will be human and a kinsman/woman of Yisrael. Who knows, maybe the next Messiah will be a corporate Messiah. Guess we'll just have to work and see.
Web
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Permalink Reply by Kim on
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Sandra,
As far as Mohammed, I don't know enough to comment...that is not my background. I can only speak of my experience in the Church. I was brought up in the Church and I was taught the Ten Commandments (minus #4- how sad they don't know what they are missing). I was taught to love G-d with all my heart and to love my neighbor as myself. I was taught to pray. When I began questioning and studying Yeshua verses the Christian Jesus, I learned the wonders of the Torah, the Writings, and the Prophets. HaShem spoke to me through the Tanach. I readily accepted that Yeshua was a man and that it was YHVH alone who should be praised and worshiped. Yes, I was angry that I had been lied to, but I was (and am) still thankful that I was not raised in an agnostic or atheist home.
As far as the authentic saying of Jesus, I just realized that the link to the article concerning the authentic says of Jesus did not show up in my first post. Here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar. The conclusions of the scholars as to which sayings he probably said seem logical to me. The Church started a new religion out of what had been a sect within Judaism. The message that they wanted to spread was anti-Torah; therefore, it does not make sense that Torah-upholding verses like in Matthew 15 would have been attributed to Yeshua if he hadn't actually said them. James also has an interview on Israel National Radio in which he mentions the order that the books of the Christian writing were actually written. By putting them in order the progression of Christian doctrine and the deterioration of the facts can be seen.
I believe that if Yeshua were alive today, he would be pretty mad at what has become of his message. He wouldn't even recognize himself in the Church.
Kim
Sandra Inglis said:Hi Kim,
You said,'but why do you think that YHVH preserved his words at all and allowed them to spread to the whole world? The words of other so-called messiahs have not been preserved and spread worldwide.'
What about Muhammad? YeHoWaH has allowed his words to be preserved and spread worldwide. He actually has a greater following than Yah'shua. According to this line of thinking then he must also be a prophet of YeHoWaH. Would you say Muhammad is a prophet of YeHoWaH?
Christians believe in Jesus, Muslims believe in Muhammad are they both prophets of YeHoWaH? Does the Tanakh speak of either of them? As I see it it was not YeHoWaH who preserved the words of Jesus, it was the Catholic church and it was Muslims who preserved the words of Muhammad not YeHoWaH. YeHoWaH gave Judah the task to preserve His word which is preserved for us in the Tanakh.
Sandra.
Kim Molnar said:I can agree that holding onto Yeshua as G-d or as the Messiah is in line with idol worship. I pray directly to YHVH & no other and believe in no other Savior save YHVH; however, I don't believe seeing him as a teacher or prophet is equivalent to idol worship. As we cannot judge which words have been added, doctored, or mistranslated, I don't think we can judge the man that he was or call him a false prophet. I have asked myself also why his words not have been preserved correctly (with all the contradictions they have not been) if he were a true prophet, but why do you think that YHVH preserved his words at all and allowed them to spread to the whole world? The words of other so-called messiahs have not been preserved and spread worldwide. The ways of HaShem are simply not our ways. We can only see through a glass darkly.
Kim Sandra Inglis said:Hi Kim,
I appreciate what you are saying but how do we really know what are the authenticated words of Yah'shua and what are not? You may say that only his words which line up with Torah are authentic, but how do we really know what he actually taught? The only record of his words are in the Christian writings. On what basis do you claim that he was a Torah observant Jew. I believe he was a Jew and he claimed to observe and obey Torah, but the only record we have of his words show that he taught some things which were against Torah. Which of his words do we accept as being his words and which do we reject? We can easily determine which words line up with Torah if we study Torah, but without the Torah we would not know which of his words were true and which were false.
You see Yah'shua as you want to see him, not as the records show him to be. If we go by what is written in the Christian writings we have to conclude that he was a false prophet. There were many false prophets in Israel. How do you know Yah'shua was not one of them? Just because a person is a Jew does not automatically make him Torah observant or mean that what he teaches is truth. YeHoWaH gave us the means to tell if a person was a true or false prophet, and if we judge Yah'shua by his words we find him to be a false prophet according to YeHoWaH's instruction for determining who is a true prophet and who is a false prophet. We have no way of knowing if what is recorded in the Christian writings concerning what he said is true or false. You can either accept his testimony in the Christian writings as they are, or reject his testimony, but to take some of what he said and reject the rest because it does not line up with Torah is making a judgment on only half the evidence.
If Yah'shua were truly a prophet of YeHoWaH then YeHoWaH would have preserved his word as truth, just as he has done with the word of the Prophets in the Tanakh. Closing your eyes to the evidence because you do not like what you see is falsifying evidence. You have to look at the whole picture to find the truth.
I see Yah'shua a a stumbling block to people coming out of a false religion, a stumbling block which prevents them from seeing the truth which is written in the Tanakh. Until people see that Yah'shua is an idol, then they will not let go. Worship of Yah'shua is idolatrous worship. Holding on to Yah'shua is holding on to the idols of ones heart and not turning to YeHoWaH with all of your heart. As Elijah said, 'How long halt ye between two opinions? If YeHoWaH be God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.'
May YeHoWaH be with us as we seek to know and follow Him.
Shalom,
Sandra.
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