One reason why it is SO difficult for Ephramites to be accepted as Israeli citizens...
Many people have been struggling with the concept of why Israel can't/won't readily admit someone (for citizenship) who describes a connection to the Hebrew people. See the article below, and you'll see two things:
1. The answer to what I mentioned above..
2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult) very tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in the entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which will be accepted in Israel).
The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian missionary from among sincere, potential converts. Hmmmm...maybe there's a 'job opportunity' here! I will be there worst nightmare....
Hanoch
Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts
by Hillel Fendel
The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts to Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus – and are active missionaries.
Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and anti-assimilation Yad L’Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly “shocked” at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.
An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the conversion rolls.
Yad L’Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses of more than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during and after their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then accepted as members of religious communities, and their children were accepted into religious schools.
The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in the legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members.
1. The answer to what I mentioned above..
2. Why it has become (and will even become increasingly more difficult) very tough to convert to Judaism (there are currently less then 33 Rabbis in the entire United States (!!) sanctioned to do Orthodox conversions which will be accepted in Israel).
The Rabbis in Israel don't seem to know how to "spot" a Christian missionary from among sincere, potential converts. Hmmmm...maybe there's a 'job opportunity' here! I will be there worst nightmare....
Hanoch
Rabbinate Confronted With 60 Missionary Converts
by Hillel Fendel
The Chief Rabbinate has been given a list of more than 60 recent converts to Judaism who continue to believe in Jesus – and are active missionaries.
Rabbi Shalom Dov Lifshitz, chairman and founder of the anti-missionary and anti-assimilation Yad L’Achim organization, met in recent days with Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar and provided him with the list. Rabbi Amar was reportedly “shocked” at seeing that the Chief Rabbinate had authorized the conversions.
An immediate solution was found for the future, however. Rabbi Lifshitz presented Rabbi Amar with a list of 17 questions that should be asked of any prospective convert. Under the assumption that the missionaries will either not lie straight out, or that the specific questions will help detect the lies, it is hoped that missionaries will be spotted and weeded out from the conversion rolls.
Yad L’Achim had prepared the list of names, ID numbers and addresses of more than 60 people who were active in missionary groups before, during and after their long conversion process to Judaism. The "converts" were then accepted as members of religious communities, and their children were accepted into religious schools.
The meeting between the two rabbis was held in advance of the anticipated Aliyah [immigration to Israe of many Bnei Menashe members to Israel, amongst whom it is suspected are a significant number of missionaries. The questions to be asked of them will enable weeding them out while resulting in the legitimization of the conversion of the remaining members.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Allen on -
Quote: This particular thread was SUPPOSED to be about why Ephraimites are not being accepted by the government of Israel.
No sarcasm intended in any way... So you do not believe that one of the primary reasons Ephraimites are not accepted is because of their idolatry and desire to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith?
I am curious.. Please tell us what you believe is holding the government back from allowing Ephraim into the land.
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Permalink Reply by Valerie Knowles on -
Allen,
I dont understand your question...what are you asking me?
Shalom,
Valerie
Sandra Inglis said:It seems our dialogue is upsetting some. I think it might be best if we continue this dialogue in another thread. If you would like to copy our posts to another thread I would be happy to continue this discussion with you. If not, then since others are upset by our posts then it is probably best to drop this discussion.
Allen said:Mar 10:21 And יהושע, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One matter you lack: Go, sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven. And come, follow Me, taking up the stake.”
Let me show you something similar in the TaNaKh….
1Ki 19:19 And he went from there, and found Elisha son of Shaphat, who was ploughing with twelve yoke of oxen before him, and he was with the twelfth. And Ěliyahu passed by him and threw his robe on him. 20 And he left the oxen and ran after Ěliyahu, and said, “Please let me kiss my father and my mother, and then I follow you.” And he said to him, “Go, turn back, for what have I done to you?” 21 And he turned back from him, and took a yoke of oxen and slaughtered them and cooked their flesh, using the implements of the oxen, and gave it to the people, and they ate. Then he rose up and followed Ěliyahu, and became his servant.
Follow me is the context in the words above.
2Ki 4:12 And he said to Gĕḥazi his servant, “Call this Shunammite woman.” So he called her, and she stood before him.
2Ki 6:1 And the sons of the prophets said to Elisha, “See, the place where we dwell with you is too small for us. 2 “Please, let us go to the Yardĕn, and let every man take a log from there, and let us make there a place to dwell.” And he answered, “Go.”
Elisha has a servant? Who are these sons of the prophets who answer to Elisha? They are followers of Elisha. They are his students. This is the context of follow me – become my student, I will teach you how to serve the Most High.
Yah'shua wasn't on a power trip. This is not expressed in his words or actions. He was training students to carry on after him.
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Permalink Reply by Lloyd on
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The discussion has been about why Ephraimites have not been accepted as Israeli citizens. Perhaps there is a more significant question. It appears to me it is not about whether or not the Israeli government should accept Ephraimites as citizens of Israel. What seems to be the greater question is: Does Hashem accept this movement as being legitimate and representing the Kingdom of Heaven? Jews are identified as adhering in total faith, i.e.loyalty, to the 13 principles set down by Maimonides as what must be believed to be a Jew. Also the oral law, which is the basis for halachah [way of walking], defines whether or not you are Orthodox, that is, a Torah-true person.
What I think might be a productive discussion is how does one define an Ephraimite, and what are the elements that describe that person and and define his purpose and direction.
Sandra Inglis said:It seems our dialogue is upsetting some. I think it might be best if we continue this dialogue in another thread. If you would like to copy our posts to another thread I would be happy to continue this discussion with you. If not, then since others are upset by our posts then it is probably best to drop this discussion.
Allen said:Mar 10:21 And יהושע, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One matter you lack: Go, sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven. And come, follow Me, taking up the stake.”
Let me show you something similar in the TaNaKh….
1Ki 19:19 And he went from there, and found Elisha son of Shaphat, who was ploughing with twelve yoke of oxen before him, and he was with the twelfth. And Ěliyahu passed by him and threw his robe on him. 20 And he left the oxen and ran after Ěliyahu, and said, “Please let me kiss my father and my mother, and then I follow you.” And he said to him, “Go, turn back, for what have I done to you?” 21 And he turned back from him, and took a yoke of oxen and slaughtered them and cooked their flesh, using the implements of the oxen, and gave it to the people, and they ate. Then he rose up and followed Ěliyahu, and became his servant.
Follow me is the context in the words above.
2Ki 4:12 And he said to Gĕḥazi his servant, “Call this Shunammite woman.” So he called her, and she stood before him.
2Ki 6:1 And the sons of the prophets said to Elisha, “See, the place where we dwell with you is too small for us. 2 “Please, let us go to the Yardĕn, and let every man take a log from there, and let us make there a place to dwell.” And he answered, “Go.”
Elisha has a servant? Who are these sons of the prophets who answer to Elisha? They are followers of Elisha. They are his students. This is the context of follow me – become my student, I will teach you how to serve the Most High.
Yah'shua wasn't on a power trip. This is not expressed in his words or actions. He was training students to carry on after him.
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Permalink Reply by Allen on
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Quote: I dont understand your question...what are you asking me?
I would like to know more of what you & other folks believe is keeping Ephraim from being in The Land at this time.
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Permalink Reply by David on -
Hey Loyd....(Glad to see your post......)
You ask
Does Hashem accept this movement as being legitimate and representing the Kingdom of Heaven?
Answer....I hope so, I am concerned that the title Ephraimites is the correct term. as I am also concerning about the term 'Kingdom of Heaven'.
This I do know.....Jer 32:41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul. (read in context)
Its about the Land!
dave
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Permalink Reply by Kim on -
I feel that HaShem has shown me the wonders of His Torah. He has given me a heart for Him, for Torah, and for the land. I don't have a label, but I feel that when HaShem wants me and others who are hearing His call to be in the land He will provide a way...Israeli government or not. That does not remove my responsibility, I must prepare and then trust in HaShem to take me the rest of the way. Of utmost importance, for me at least, is to always remember that Israel is home. It was watching Israel being attacked during the war with Lebanon that opened my eyes and brought me back to HaShem. I can't explain it, but Israel became personal to me...deep inside I knew that it was my homeland that was being attacked. May there be Peace for Jerusalem soon and in our day.
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Permalink Reply by Patty on -
Sandra Inglis said: "Yah'shua did not come to turn Israel back to YeHoWaH, he came to gain a following for himself. He did not teach that the sinner shall die and the righteous shall live. He taught that all who follow him shall have eternal life. This disqualifies him as being a prophet of YeHoWaH."
Hi Sandra, once again I believe you are sorely mistaken. Please consider Matt. 19:
[16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17] And he said unto him, Why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.
It is so plain to see here that Yeshua takes all attention away from himself and puts the focus where it should be - on God - not even allowing himself to be referred to as "good". He teaches that Eternal Life is attained by keeping the commandments. It can't get any clearer than this.
Patty
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Permalink Reply by Valerie Knowles on
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Getting back to the origional question.........
Ephraim is not trying to be Judah,S o that is a moot point. Ephraim is trying to make T'shuva. The government of israel is very very evil. They do NOT want ANYBODY I in The Land making true T'shuva. I m starting to see clealry that going over there early is an assignment. Yeshua is THE one that will gather us to THE LAND
Valerie
Sandra Inglis said:Shalom Bob,
I agree with what you are saying.
Bob Morley said:It dawned on me the other day that trying to be Judah is not the goal. Ephraim has lost its identity but much of Judah is in error. It seems to me that BOTH have to find the original line. I grant you, Judah maybe look a lot more like that original line, but I left the Messianic movement because of their effort to emulate Judah far too closely. I want to LEARN from Judah, but at the same time sort out the man-made from the original intention of Yah
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Permalink Reply by Patty on
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Sandra said: "Ye are My witnesses, saith YeHoWaH, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no God formed, neither shall any be after Me. I, even I, am YeHoWaH; and beside Me there is no saviour."
Shalom Sandra, I believe you are citing Isaiah 43:11 (?) If so, this same word for saviour "yasha" is also used in Judges 3:9 and 3:15:
[9] And when the children of Israel cried unto YHWH, YHWH raised up a deliverer (yasha/saviour) to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.
[15] But when the children of Israel cried unto YHWH, YHWH raised them up a deliverer (yasha/saviour), Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab.
So I believe that YHWH can appoint a human as A saviour, A deliverer...but they are not THE Saviour, or THE Deliverer. This is in the same context in which Moses can be called AN elohim (mighty one) but not THE Elohim which is a title reserved for YHWH alone.
In reference to Yeshua, he NEVER claimed to be The Source of anything - to the contrary, he said "I can do nothing on my own". An interesting note: His name isn't Yesha/Yeshua, which means "salvation/saving", but rather YEHOshua, or "Salvation is of YAH" - so even his name gives all the glory to YHWH!!
Love & Blessings,
Patty
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Permalink Reply by Patty on
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Shalom All,
More on Saviour. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I believe that Salvation utltimately comes from YHWH, but that YHWH has appointed select individuals as His agents to bring, deliver, announce His Salvation. Yeshua is not called the Saviour once in the gospels of Matthew or Mark, and in the rest of the NT the Gnostic Savior or the Soter, was edited into the text and the Jewish man Yeshua was crafted into Soter. Soter was also called the "Son of God " and was one of a trinity of g-ds. He would redeem mankind by his suffering and release it from the evil Demiurge.
I am sure that James Tabor or others on this group would be able to expand on this topic in greater detail.
Love & Blessings,
Patty
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Permalink Reply by Valerie Knowles on
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Shalom Schmuliq,
"Ephriamite" is a word used to describe the 10 northern tribes that were sent into exile 2700 years ago, that many prophecies in Tenach tell us will repent and make T'shuva back to the beauty and safety of Torah! Also referred to as Joseph or "joes"
Hope that helps
Shalom,
Valeire
Mark & Sharon said:Shalom Shmuliq,
Nice to here a voice closer to home; we live in Pembrokeshire, West Wales.
We have just followed the trail to your Talmidi website and were really encouraged by the views expressed there.
Having recently read "How Jesus became Christian","The Jesus Dynasty" and "Return to Abrahamic Faith" so much makes sense despite the disparate and fractured world of Torah followers out there.
We have to say we did stumble over your section on afterlife. Maybe you could clarify this, if you have a moment?
Are these beliefs based upon specific scriptures or later interpretations of scholars or groups? We are very wary of any descriptions of the life to come and even more so those of pre-existence. We have come across very similar teachings of pre-existence, it being a fundamental principle of early Mormonism, Islam, Anthroposophy but previously both Persian and Greek philosophies promoted such beliefs.
Having once been confirmed Roman Catholics we recognize the view of ‘purgatory’ in your paragraph on purification. This like many RC dogmas are of questionable roots.
Do you not think that going along these lines could encourage personal apathy rather than personal responsibility?
We appreciate these are your personal beliefs but the style of prose implies much more authority than this. Are you saying that you have personal memories of some kind of your own pre-existence that has given you insights into this and the afterlife?
One last question. If in your view only the “bravest, strongest and most heroic souls” come to earth, why is this not evident when we look at the world and the dark shadow of humanity?
(Something of a footnote...
We are encouraged like you by the prophecies of Isaiah and feel, like Richard Schwartz and others that it is our responsibility help usher in the Kingdom of YHVH. To this end we have become strict vegetarian as were the early followers of the WAY. These sites are very informative and encouraging: www.asacredduty.com and www.jewishveg.com )
Blessings Sharon and Mark
Shmuliq Parzal said:Shabbat shalom Hanoch,
Thank you for your reply, that makes sense. I am excited about the diversity of thought and opinions here, like suddenly coming into a banquet hall with lots and lots of wonderful food! Where to begin.
Where I'm coming from, well, I'm a Talmidi Jew, I'm a Naftalite by adoption rather than descent, so I feel closer spiritually to the northern Kingdom, that's why I just wanted a clarification so I could understand where you were coming from.
So far I have come across many views here that I can indentify with, it's very interesting!
Hanoch Young said:Hi Shmuliq,
Baruch Haba - welcome! I assume you were referring to my original post, although as you can see, our friends have run off in another direction in this discussion :-) LOL But yes, (b) is the way I am using the term "Ephramite" ro refer to anyone who believes themselves to be a descendant of the so-called, "Lost Tribes. Of course, that belief is a matter of the heart at this time, since there is no way to objectively prove that (answering what is usually the follow up question..). And you never have to be hesitant when asking a question - this is a very non-judgemental, supportive, diverse group of people. We're here to share and support, not to judge, condemn or "convert." Sounds pretty unique, huh? :-)
Shabbat Shalom,
Hanoch
Shmuliq Parzal said:Forgive my ignorance and my newcomer-ness, I just want some clarification on who you mean by 'Ephraimites'.... I personally would use it to mean a) a member of the tribe of Ephraim, or b) anyone descended from any of the tribes of the northern kingdom. I take it you do not mean it this way? Could you tell me who you are referring to? Many thanks... Shmuliq
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