Play it again, Samuel
My posts in my topic "The Symphony" were deleted. Let's try again. Messianic Israel will apparently revive the Temple system after 1940 years at least. Why will things have different results from the 1000 years of David's kingdom? Is it reasonable that a development in Judaism from the tabernacle, judges and army generals of the Red Sea, will be fixed as the eternal structure? And is a territory between Nile and Euphrates really the world seat of governmen?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Hanoch Young on -
Hey John -
I couldn't resist responding to such a catchy topic title! :-) May I share my personal opinions (which are strictly MINE, and do not represent any group)? There is a bit of a disagreement within mainstream Judaism as to what the Bet HaMikdash (Holy Temple) will exactly be like. Sacrafices? Some say yes, others say, 'no.' Personally, I'm of the opinion (following Rav Avraham Kook, famed first Chief Rabbi of Israel, under British military occupation), that there will not be sacrafices.
Although history diagrees with me, I am eternally hopefully that we will all do T'shuva (return to G-d and HIS directions). I (again, personally) feel that there will be some 'adjustment' or 'correction' or 'direction' that will guide us in how to live in the 21st Century. It's likely to be different then we ALL tend to think, I'll tell you that!
Yes, The Land of Israel will be within its Biblically promised borders, and be living in (true!) peace. From their the Light and understanding of Torah will go out to the world, but I don't see that occuring as a sort of 'One World Government' type thing, no.
Not sure if you agree, disagree, or are neutral, just thought I'd throw my 2 Shekels in. Hey, this could be the start of a beautiful friendship... LOL
Best regards,
Hanoch
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Permalink Reply by John Welch on -
"The Land of Israel will be within its Biblically promised borders"._Hanoch
"Messiah ruling over the whole world based out of Jerusalem. Yes, The Land of Israel will be within its Biblically promised borders, and be living in (true!) peace"._Hez.
The prophets speak truth. Samuel spoke to David about Bathsheba being as a lamb of her husband which was taken away. Bathsheba had 2 legs not 4. So David and ourselves use our reason to understand the prophet. Is it reasonable to say Israel will be separate and privileged - and in peace? The Arab problem is noted by you, and the use of force. Israel of today began with the Stern gang and remains reliant on Christian US, and Israeli bombs, including nukes. Your reading of the prophets and Moses should suggest caution about that. It is an uncertain platform for Messiah to stand on. Muslims must obey the forceful Messiah brought to you by our sponsors, Southern Baptist Cruise missiles.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Clark on -
There is another school of thought in this also, not my opinion, but will throw it in, many Orthodox that practice Kabbalah, my background is Chabad feel there will be a Temple, but what G-d is looking for is a Temple of human stones. No, I am not talking about what Paul is talking about, but its not far off. Some in the Orthodox feel the final Temple will be a living Temple of souls, not one made of stone. There are so many opinions on this topic, most conservative and reform don't even feel there will be another Temple, nor a messiah, that the kingdom will just happen, when we become good enough, which will never happen as long as it is up to us, lol.
Mika'el
John Welch said:"The Land of Israel will be within its Biblically promised borders"._Hanoch
"Messiah ruling over the whole world based out of Jerusalem. Yes, The Land of Israel will be within its Biblically promised borders, and be living in (true!) peace"._Hez.
The prophets speak truth. Samuel spoke to David about Bathsheba being as a lamb of her husband which was taken away. Bathsheba had 2 legs not 4. So David and ourselves use our reason to understand the prophet. Is it reasonable to say Israel will be separate and privileged - and in peace? The Arab problem is noted by you, and the use of force. Israel of today began with the Stern gang and remains reliant on Christian US, and Israeli bombs, including nukes. Your reading of the prophets and Moses should suggest caution about that. It is an uncertain platform for Messiah to stand on. Muslims must obey the forceful Messiah brought to you by our sponsors, Southern Baptist Cruise missiles.
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Permalink Reply by John Welch on
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The Republic of Israel has equal rights with any nation, and is more equal than losers without nukes. And it can claim to aspire to a future righteousness with human "stones". But (1) will Messiah buy a used-state from those politicians? (2) will Muslims, peace be upon them, be all-merciful to a nuke-powered super-state? It is the hope that the citizens are The People, but do any sons of Adam have inherent front seats at the throne of G-d? The Faith was protected for the sake of Abraham, David and other right stuff, but the population need to be different from goyyim geeks. Perhaps the very fact of creating Israel has removed their claim to be separate. In the past, as in World War 1, Jews fought on both sides for nations, and thus against fellow men of faith. Repeatedly, ancient Israel was reproved for wars and politics contrary to orders from G-d through prophets. What is there for Messiah to establish, when Christian and Israeli nukes have already established the government? By definition, democracy is specifically anti-theocracy.
Psalm 72 says he will rule to the ends of the earth, as long as the moon exists, and kings will serve him. Surely it will not be like the little corporal from Austria with his secret weapons and jackboots? I believe the rule will be peaceful but I am a guest in your synagogue here and am testing your logic as presented.
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Permalink Reply by John Welch on
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Hez old mate,
I was being positive, that "surely it won't be like" that? But you say: "It is interesting to note that these Messianic
prophecies foretell the nations' subjugation to Israel." I'm worried. That's going beyond Isaiah's words. And thus, G-d did not make Pharaoh an attendant on Moses, or agree with Solomon taking foreign wives. He does not compel obedience by force, but invited Israel to agree to Moses' covenant. My q. was : Will Messiah want to claim today's Israel? In fact, Israel has agreed to US military re-supply, and final security, even with its own Israeli nukes as I stated several times. I'm hoping for a spiritual review of what Israel could define for its current role, in the light of prophecy, but your responses are puzzling. How can tribes be identified after 1900 years of intermarriage, including foreigners? Who is the current heir of David, and how does Messiah descend from Judah's genealogy? This is not a push for Christ, but an inquiry about scriptural logic. I'm a guest here and can't claim the right to stay permanently. If Israel is a guest in G-d's house, does it have ownership?
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Permalink Reply by ronald wayne copeland on -
Hi maybe this is the wrong place for this comment but I couldn't help but think of modern Israel and prophesy concerning Isn't there two different out comes for the people? Meaning a prophesy for judgment because of sin and another for when the nation turns from their sins and a positive outcome. I'm thinking of Jerusalem being surrounded by he enemies G-d forbid. How many times has Israel been against the wall only to come out victorious. praise Hashem!
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Permalink Reply by John Welch on
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Hi Ron,
You're right there. It raises the q. "how is Republic of Israel turning from sin?" If Ezekiel says the turban and crown will not return until he with legal right comes, and from Daniel's time the throne was made low, then where is the instruction to restore independent rule in Jerusalem? The reliance on US alliance adds to the wobbly basis of independent Israel in G-d's will.
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Permalink Reply by Hanoch Young on
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Hey Dan -
I'm not so sure about that (my being that wise..), but the say that breathing the very air of Eretz Yisrael enables one to gain special insights. Now THAT I am looking forward to! :-) Barely three more months....
Take care!
Hanoch
Dan Tabor said:You are WAAAAAAY TOOOO wise to be living in "Yankee Land" Hanoach, Godspeed October!
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Permalink Reply by John Welch on
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"Messed up and wound up with everything deleted." OK, Hez, I'm hassling you fairly hard.
"G-d does have ways to force an issue." Yes, but he didn't force anyone to agree to the covenant.
"When He reached Israel, it says He held Sinai over Israel's head and told them accept the Torah or be ended there by the mountain dropping on their heads." Right, but dead people such as Korah could not be forced to obey. In fact, that threat was not the way that He did it. The whole world will become one without other religions, but where is the prophecy that He will twist their arms to compel it?
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Permalink Reply by John Welch on
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(part 2).
Hez said, "Messiah's job is to get Israel back on track so he really won't have a choice anymore than Israel will have the choice to say they don't want to live again by Torah."
Maybe I should spell out what i have been hinting at. "Israel" can be Jacob, or Jewish people in NY, or the Republic, or the land area. "The Democratic Republic of N Korea" is not democratic, and New York is not part of York in UK. The kingdom which fell to Babylon's Nebuchadnezzar was evidently not "Israel" in G-d's eyes, in the genuine sense. So,..
"I really don't think the US will be helping Israel when push comes to shove. " Yet it is Israel's democracy which states its reliance on US, "In G-d we trust" $$$, which is a bit rude towards the G-d of Moses. The United States of American Israel? The unwillingness to re-start Temple sacrifice under Hamas rockets indicates the dis-connect from G-d.
"He will define the lineage of the Israelites according to their tribe alone;"
I'm uncertain about lineage. Does a single daughter with no brother, receive the tribal line? If so, the lines are equally mixed by mother and father of different tribes. Then tribal definition must be meaningless and arbitrary, and land grants could not now be fixed on any particular person. For industrialised people, does a farm in Israel across the Jordan or Negev, have much value? Will Jews only live in Israel, when the whole world will know G-d?
" The messiah will be from the house of David through the line of Soloman.The person that comes and does everything the messiah is to do will be messiah." You mean a human son will be born? hmmmmm..
"G-d owns the earth. Israel is on land G-d gave them to live on." Well, the Republic is on land G-d gave (Abraham, Moses, David) to live on. What if Abraham's Moriah Sacrifice Party was voted out of political office? What would Moses say in his press-conference on losing an election? (be frightened, be very frightened...)
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Permalink Reply by John Welch on
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Hi Sandra,
This is within the 2 promises to Abraham that nations will be blessed. In accord with all other judgments, goyim will die at G-d's hand but not dragged as prisoners to stand before theTemple. Pharaoh died , but was not handcuffed to watch Moses at Sinai, to agree to the covenant. "People from nations" which will attack the King would then not be the warriors, the nation, but individuals who chose not to attack with their nation. Thus Egyptian nationals under Pharaoh chose not to attack Moses but went out from Egypt with him and Israel. You may have that Egyptian blood ancestry with Abraham's DNA. And then a refusal by willing worshippers, to keep worshipping, will be punished in the future as in the past.
In the beginning, there was 1 man Abraham in Iraq, and no Israel or Jews. The promise to Israel is a result of the faith of Abraham, not the cause of it. Israel's future is measured within the future of the world, and all are equally sons of G-d.
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Permalink Reply by Kim on -
I like the teaching that Ross gave this past Sabbath...about the Ruach HaKodesh. In the beginning, the world was null and void (in chaos). HaShem sent his Spirit over the waters and brought order.
My words: I believe what is happening now is the beginning of HaShem once again sending his Spirit over this world of confusion and chaos and bringing order. It is a process (as creation itself was) which will culminate with the Torah being written on the hearts of those remaining...all will know him, and it will be good as in the beginning.
Hezakiah Levinson said:Hezakiah Levinson said:John Welch said:(part 2).
Hez said, "Messiah's job is to get Israel back on track so he really won't have a choice anymore than Israel will have the choice to say they don't want to live again by Torah."
Maybe I should spell out what i have been hinting at. "Israel" can be Jacob, or Jewish people in NY, or the Republic, or the land area. "The Democratic Republic of N Korea" is not democratic, and New York is not part of York in UK. The kingdom which fell to Babylon's Nebuchadnezzar was evidently not "Israel" in G-d's eyes, in the genuine sense. So,..
"I really don't think the US will be helping Israel when push comes to shove. " Yet it is Israel's democracy which states its reliance on US, "In G-d we trust" $$$, which is a bit rude towards the G-d of Moses. The United States of American Israel? The unwillingness to re-start Temple sacrifice under Hamas rockets indicates the dis-connect from G-d.
"He will define the lineage of the Israelites according to their tribe alone;"
I'm uncertain about lineage. Does a single daughter with no brother, receive the tribal line? If so, the lines are equally mixed by mother and father of different tribes. Then tribal definition must be meaningless and arbitrary, and land grants could not now be fixed on any particular person. For industrialised people, does a farm in Israel across the Jordan or Negev, have much value? Will Jews only live in Israel, when the whole world will know G-d?
" The messiah will be from the house of David through the line of Soloman.The person that comes and does everything the messiah is to do will be messiah." You mean a human son will be born? hmmmmm..
"G-d owns the earth. Israel is on land G-d gave them to live on." Well, the Republic is on land G-d gave (Abraham, Moses, David) to live on. What if Abraham's Moriah Sacrifice Party was voted out of political office? What would Moses say in his press-conference on losing an election? (be frightened, be very frightened...)
Just a quick one,bro. No hassle seen,just lots of questions. It's to close to the yom tov to get into it now so ya Sat nite (USA time). Glad to see you're sticking in there.
"Maybe I should spell out what i have been hinting at. "Israel" can be Jacob, or Jewish people in NY, or the Republic, or the land area. "The Democratic Republic of N Korea" is not democratic, and New York is not part of York in UK. The kingdom which fell to Babylon's Nebuchadnezzar was evidently not "Israel" in G-d's eyes, in the genuine sense. So,.."
Israel remains Israel even when it sins and is thrust into exile.If you notice, the Babylonian exile was prophesied as to how long it would be and ended with the return of many to the land.It was not G-d saying it wasn't Israel anymore. Even with the state of Israel now existing as an entity, Israel is not the Israel of prophesy yet. There has been not mass exodus of Jews back to the land, no return of those of the Nortern Kingdom who went into exile back to the land though many are with us today among the rest of the Jews, no messiah to lead,no Temple rebuilt.Israel still is and always will remain being Israel even spread to the four corners of the earth.
"Yet it is Israel's democracy which states its reliance on US, "In G-d we trust" $$$, which is a bit rude towards the G-d of Moses. The United States of American Israel? The unwillingness to re-start Temple sacrifice under Hamas rockets indicates the dis-connect from G-d"
Confusing the government that Israel has with the one it will have? Why do you think Israel as it is is not the Israel of prophesy? Leaders that don't follow Torah.For a paltry 2.2 billion and empty words of support, the government of Israel the nation sells its soul to America.You CAN'T have sacrifices without the Temple standing, so willing or not,it is NOT possible at this time.
"I'm uncertain about lineage. Does a single daughter with no brother, receive the tribal line? If so, the lines are equally mixed by mother and father of different tribes. Then tribal definition must be meaningless and arbitrary, and land grants could not now be fixed on any particular person. For industrialised people, does a farm in Israel across the Jordan or Negev, have much value? Will Jews only live in Israel, when the whole world will know G-d?"
Any child born is the tribe of their father, boy or girl.Tribe is paternal. A girl born to a Levite is a Levite and is one for life. Her children will be whatever tribe her husband is.People are not half this tribe and half that tribe.Prophesy says ALL of Israel will return to the land and take pocession of their respective portions with the tribe of Joseph getting a double share since it is divided into two sub -tribes named for Joseph's sons.Since when does "farm land" have to remain farm land? Land gets developed or there would be no such thing as cities,factory complexes, ect.Besides,ever check what land sells for in Israel? < grin > Like I said,prophesy says ALL of Israel will dwell in the land, which includes the restoration of the Northern populace.
Concerning messiah: "You mean a human son will be born? hmmmmm"
Since tribe is paternal, it takes a human father from the tribe of Judah, in the line of David and through Soloman and a human mother that is a born Israelite or a convert to have a child of Judah, in the line of David through Solomon.
"Well, the Republic is on land G-d gave (Abraham, Moses, David) to live on. What if Abraham's Moriah Sacrifice Party was voted out of political office? What would Moses say in his press-conference on losing an election? (be frightened, be very frightened...)"
To repeat again, Israel that you can go fly to,rent a room at te King David Hotel and go hit a falafel stand is NOT the Israel of prophesy. It is the first flowering of it just by existing,but is NOT what it will be.Who they vote for or vote against will be a moot point when the messiah comes and does what he is to do.
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