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Permalink Reply by Patty on March 1, 2011 at 9:25am Shalom Again Anders,
To clarify my position on the different "dimensions" of the Torah, I would like to explain how I understand this:
The three dimensions of the Torah are the Moral Law, the Civil Law, and the Ceremonial Law.
The Moral Law contains the Ten Commandments and is different than the other Laws of the Torah in that it is “perpetual”, “eternal”, and universal, applying to all of mankind at all times. There are no exceptions to the Moral Law, but there have been different levels of observance required at different points in the history of Israel. That is another discussion :) .
The Ceremonial Laws have to do with Temple operations, sacrifices and rituals. Since there is no Temple, most of these laws don’t apply today.
The Civil Law stems from the Moral Law, but its application is also secular in that it governed the Israelites as a Nation, and dealt with the social, domestic and commercial issues of the people living in the Land of Israel. An example of a Civil Law would be stoning, or the cutting off of a body part for various offences.
I hope you find this helpful.
Patty
Shalom Patty, usually most people give very drawn out and complex explantions on this issue. But you have given a very simple to understand and yet precise overview of this subject. For what it is worth I agree with your summary.
Sinai Servant
Patty said:
Shalom Again Anders,
To clarify my position on the different "dimensions" of the Torah, I would like to explain how I understand this:
The three dimensions of the Torah are the Moral Law, the Civil Law, and the Ceremonial Law.
The Moral Law contains the Ten Commandments and is different than the other Laws of the Torah in that it is “perpetual”, “eternal”, and universal, applying to all of mankind at all times. There are no exceptions to the Moral Law, but there have been different levels of observance required at different points in the history of Israel. That is another discussion :) .
The Ceremonial Laws have to do with Temple operations, sacrifices and rituals. Since there is no Temple, most of these laws don’t apply today.
The Civil Law stems from the Moral Law, but its application is also secular in that it governed the Israelites as a Nation, and dealt with the social, domestic and commercial issues of the people living in the Land of Israel. An example of a Civil Law would be stoning, or the cutting off of a body part for various offences.
I hope you find this helpful.
Patty
Permalink Reply by Patty on March 1, 2011 at 4:39pm Shalom Patty!
You wrote: “Shalom Anders,
(.. ) you consider the Torah, as we have it today, to be innerent and completely consistent, and also why you think that understanding whether a Miztvah is Perpetual or Civil is "adding or taking away" from the Torah? “
The Torah is the Consistent Instruction manual of the Creator to mankind; and all of the directives of it are commanded by the Creator [Logical proof if anyone reading isn’t convinced: Link].
Regarding perpetual and civil:
D’varim – Deuteronomy - 27:10: And listen to the voice of י—ה, your Elohim; and do His mitzwot and His khuqim that I command you today as a mitzwah.
That verse implies that we should observe His khuqim and His mitzwot. I demonstrated in my previous post that we are obligated to observe mishpat.
All of the directives of the Torah are included in these categories.
The Creator revealed all of His mitzwot to Yisraeil – Devarim 28:1:f – and then it is written:
Devarim – Deuteronomy - 29:13:
Not with you alone do I כרת this bәrit and this malediction, 14 but with whoever stands with us here today before ha-Sheim our Ëlohim and with whoever is not here with us today
That is, all of the mitzwot and the khuqim are incumbent on Israel for all generations.
The mitzwot that the Creator’s has revealed is also incumbent upon all of mankind [Documentation].
D’varim – Deuteronomy - 27:26:
"Cursed is (s)he who shall not uphold this sayings of Torah to be doing them; and â·mar′ all of hâ-Âm [People] âmein."
It can’t be any clearer than this. This verse implies that a person who is not doing his/her utmost to keep the directives of Torah non-selectively is cursed.
D’varim 29:19: speaks about the person not doing his/her utmost to keep the mitzwot of Torah non-selectively [Further explanation.]:
lo-yovëh י--ה sәlakh lo; haSheim won't acquiesce to forgive him"
In conclusion, according to the above quoted verses, all of the mitzwot and the khuqim of Torah are perpetually incumbent on mankind to do her best to observe. However, the Creator doesn’t require us to observe mitzwot that are today impossible to observe.
According to Torah, He only requires us to do our utmost.
In D’varim 13 the Creator commands observance of the mitzwot. It is clear from the verses quoted above that this verse were not only for that generation or a specific number of generations, but for every generation Thus, stating that mankind stopped being incumbent to observance of any mitzwah, i.e. to state that any mitzwah was only commanded for a specific number of generations, clearly is a subtraction from the Torah.
All of the mitzwot and the khuqim of Torah describes how to live a moral lifestyle. This is clear from the b’rakhot and the curses described in D’varim 28. As stated above, a person not doing his/her utmost in observing the Torah is cursed according to the logical implications of D’varim 27:26.
Regarding sacrificies:
The mitzwah of making qorbanot in the beit ha-miqdash is forever impossible to fulfil [Logical implications of some of what is written in this post: Link].
Did that answer your questions?
Your thoughts?
I hope that you found this helpful!
Have a great day!
Shalom,
Anders Branderud
Permalink Reply by Patty on March 2, 2011 at 4:45pm Shalom Patty,
If you read the verses before Yirmeyahu 7:21 you will see that the sacrifices the people was making was to elohim akherim. Clearly the Creator didn’t command this to the Israelites. If you read all of Yirmeyahu you would see that he clung to and taught the Torah. And Yirmeyahu didn’t say in the second quote you made that the scribes had redacted the Torah.
You wrote: “While the Torah that came from the Creator was perfect and incorruptible, man is not.”
However, the Creator didn’t breach His perfect laws of nature.
Tehilim [de-Judaized to "Psalms"] often corroborates that the logical universe reflects its Perfect Creator.
“The popular concept of miracle as contradicting the natural / physical laws is a logical impossibility, since they the product of ha-Sheim, the physical laws must be perfect. Therefore, a contradiction would render ha-Sheim imperfect; and it follows that such contradictions cannot exist in the Jewish Bible.” [Quote]
Quote: “Immutability: Ma·lâkh·i′ 3.6—"Because I am ha-Sheim, I do not change." The unchanging Order and Logic of the Omniscient Creator-Singularity of the universe is reflected in His unchanging laws (formal logic ≡ mathematics, physics and hard sciences) that govern it. The clearer you're able to see and understand His Reflection, the clearer you will perceive and understand Him—and His Ways.”
In the same way the rest of the Torah that Mosheh wrote down was the Instruction manual that the line of Adam, Khava, Noakh, Avrham, etc, up till Mosheh had received from the Creator as an ongoing revelation.
Thus, all of the directives of Torah were written down by the hands of Mosheh.
How can we then know that the Torah was given by the Creator and how can we know that the directives of it hasn’t been corrupted??
According to a logical proof – based on scientific premises – The Torah is the Instruction Manual of the Creator: Link
Furthermore, using the same premises, the Creator has also preserved the directives of His Torah. An Orderly and Super-Intelligent Creator, logically implies that He has an Orderly and non-trivial plan for mankind. This furthermore implies that He must reveal His Instructions to mankind in order for her to grasp His Will and be able to relate to Him in an orderly way. He did this with the Torah. Furthermore it logically implies that He must preserve His Will- proven to be the directives of Torah in the above link – from any man to redact His directives. If He allowed them to be redacted, than mankind would not any longer know of how to relate to the Orderly Creator. This post would be way too long if I quoted the full reasoning and all of the premises it is based on; so I instead refer to the above link.
So why claim that the directives of the Torah have been changed? There are no proofs whatsoever that the directives of the Torah have been changed; and furthermore it contradicts the above logical proof. Thus the burden of proof is on the person claiming that the directives of Torah have been redacted by man.
I agree with you that man is fallible. And thus there may be scientific errors in it or errors unrelated to the directives of the Torah. An interesting article about this can be read here on one of my blogs: Link (see the fourth paragraph of it and forward).
You wrote: “To believe it is inerrant is as naive as the Christians belief that the KVJ is inerrant.
This statement was demonstrated to be erroneous.
The KJV is proven is proven too be faulty. There is concrete evidence. There is not any concrete evidence of the redaction of the directives of Torah. Thus, the comparison is incorrect. Furthermore, that man is inerrant doesn’t imply that those descendants of Adam included in the b’rit with the Creator – couldn’t preserve the ongoing progressing Revelation of the directives of the Torah. As demonstrated above, the Creator ensured that His Instruction manual to mankind - the Torah- wouldn’t become redacted.
Anders Branderud
Shalom Anders,
Did the prophet Jeremiah think that the Torah given at Sinai was the same as the Torah of his day?
"Thus says The Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat the flesh yourselves. For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your ancestors or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices ... How can you say, ‘we are wise, for we have the law of YHWH when, actually, the lying pen of the scribes has worked falsely?" (Jeremiah chapter 7 verse 21 , chapter 8 verse 8)
While the Torah that came from the Creator was perfect and incorruptible, man is not. The Torah has suffered millennia of corruption, redaction, mistranslation, etc. To believe it is inerrant is as naive as the Christians belief that the KVJ is inerrant. I do believe that the Ten Commandments, written by the Finger of YHWH, are perfect and incorruptible. Anything written by man is subject to error. ~Patty
Permalink Reply by Patty on March 2, 2011 at 7:46pm
Permalink Reply by Patty on March 2, 2011 at 8:59pm Shalom Patty,
“And where did I say that the Creator breached His perfect Laws of Nature?!!”
Okay, you didn’t. I am sorry that I assumed that you did! I didn’t assume anything else.
“but they are lacking in logic and fact.”
You claim that they are. I want you to prove your statement to me.
“Your interpretation of the verse from Jeremiah is just plain wrong.”
You claim that it is. I want you to prove your statement. And I want you to translate the text yourself and not to rely on a translation. If you read the whole book of Yirmeyahu you will see that He endorses the Torah of י—ה and want the people to return to it!! One cannot just take one verse and interpret it out of context. In 7:21 י--ה speaks of ’their sacrifices’ and their ascendances’. It doesn’t speak of the sacrificies which י—ה commanded the Israelites, which is clear from the subsequent verses in which י—ה clearly states that they should follow the entire way that He commanded them – i.e. His entire Torah, which includes sacrifices.
The only evidence we have is that the Israelites have since the time of Mosheh regarded the Torah to be the unredacted Instruction manual of the Creator and thus, this is how they interpreted Yirmeyahu.
Your interpretation is not viable since it is clear from the rest of the book of Yirmeyahu that Yirmeyahu endorsed all of Torah.
That the word zevakh is used doesn’t imply that the sacrifices commanded in the Torah are referred to. The burden of proof is on the person asserting a statement which cannot be derived using formal logic.
According to the formal logical proof I referred to all of the directives in it originates from the Creator and is thus written by the hand of the Creator in that sense. This is also what Torah itself claims. It is only your assertion that we only can be sure that the 10 sayings originates from the Creator, and that the rest of Torah could have been corrupted. You didn’t respond to the reasoning I presented demonstrating that all of the directives of the Torah originate from the Creator.
“It appears that you are blindly going to defend your position to the detriment of Truth, in which case I think we should agree to disagree.”
Blindly? I used logic and science in my reasoning. I was definitely not using any blind reasoning. And can you prove your statement that my reasoning leads: “to the detriment of Truth”
“There are many scholarly writings that can attest to the errors, corruption and contradictions in the Hebrew Bible as we have it today”
I have read some but have yet not found any proven corruption of the directives of the Torah. If you think that you have found one that stands up for logical and scientific scrutiny you are free to present it.
I also want to repeat what I wrote: “I agree with you that man is fallible. And thus there may be scientific errors in it or errors unrelated to the directives of the Torah. An interesting article about this can be read here on one of my blogs: Link (see the fourth paragraph of it and forward).”
“Proven corruptions”? What are you referring to?
“as well as those that shed light on whether or not Moses was the author of all five books of the Torah”
I have read some of it and not found any compelling evidence. Clearly Mosheh didn’t write the parts after his death; and there also at least one change that was made some centuries after his death clarifying the name of one city that had changed its name.
“These are topics that I am studying and will study for the rest of my life. A few words of advice - a wise teacher is one who still posesses the desire to learn. ~ Patty”“
Great that you will continue to study! And hopefully you will be very critical of everything you read and see if it stands up to logic and science! Just because it is written by someone claiming to be a scholar doesn’t mean that the text can’t be riddled with many unproven assumptions. Many of those writing about Torah and its historicity assume many things.
I will also learn all of my life!
“ok, I think I get where you are coming from, you are a student of Clint van Nest?”
Clint van Nest? I don’t know what you want to say by that. I am a student of Paqid Yirmeyahu Ben Dawid. He converted more than 25 years ago and is now a Jew and is not anymore named ‘Clint’.
However, I don’t rely blindly on his writings, just like I don’t rely blindly on anyone else writings. Everything that anyone writes need to be carefully examined.
"I do believe that the Ten Commandments, written by the Finger of YHWH, are perfect and incorruptible."
10 sayings they are called in Hebrew. Among all 613 directives of the Torah, why do you choose only these 10 and claim that only those are perfect and incorruptible? If you claim that some of the directives of the Torah have been corrupted - which you have not demonstrated with any kind of proof and which contradicts the logical reasoning that I referred to - then how can you assume that these 10 weren't corrupted?
Shalom, Anders
Permalink Reply by Patty on March 4, 2011 at 11:29am Shalom All,
For anyone interested, Wikipedia has an entry on the different "dimensions" of the Torah within Judaism:
Categories
Jewish law may be categorized in various ways. Besides the basic categories applied to the mitzvot in antiquity, during the medieval period Jewish law was classified by such works as Maimonides' Mishneh Torah and Joseph Karo's Shulchan Aruch.
Classical Rabbinic Judaism has two basic categories of laws:
This division between revealed and rabbinic commandments (mitzvot) may influence the importance of a rule, its enforcement and the nature of its ongoing interpretation. Halakhic authorities may disagree on which laws fall into which categories or the circumstances (if any) under which prior Rabbinic rulings can be re-examined by contemporary rabbis, but all halakhic Jews hold that both categories exist and that the first category is immutable, with exceptions only for life-saving and similar emergency circumstances.
A second classical distinction is between the Written Torah (laws written in the Hebrew Bible, specifically its first five books), and Oral Law, laws believed transmitted orally prior to compilation in texts such as the Mishnah, Talmud, and Rabbinic codes.
Commandments are divided into positive and negative commands, which are treated differently in terms of Divine and human punishment. Positive commandments (of which tradition holds there are 248) require an action to be performed, and thus bring one closer to God. Negative commandments (traditionally 365 in number) forbid a specific action; thus violations create a distance from God. In striving to "be holy" as God is holy, one attempts so far as possible to live in accordance with God's wishes for humanity, striving to more completely live with each of these with every moment of one's life.
A further division is made between chukim ("decrees" — laws without obvious explanation, such as shatnez, the law prohibiting wearing clothing made of mixtures of linen and wool), mishpatim ("judgments" — laws with obvious social implications) and eduyot ("testimonies" or "commemorations", such as the Shabbat and holidays). Through the ages, various rabbinical authorities have classified the commandments in various other ways.
A different approach divides the laws into a different set of categories:
There is a notion in halakha that violations of the latter are more severe, in certain ways, because of the requirement one must obtain forgiveness both from the offended person and from God in the latter case.
As a practical matter, the mitzvot also may be classified in line with how they might be implemented after the destruction of the Temple. Some mitzvot are relevant only in the Land of Israel. Many laws pertaining to holiness and purity can no longer be performed, absent the holy Sanctuary in Jerusalem. Some laws require a kind of beit din (Jewish court) that no longer exists.[2]
Within Talmudic literature, Jewish law is divided into the Six Orders of the Mishnah, which are categories by proximate subject matter: Zeraim ("Seeds") for agricultural laws and prayer, Moed ("Festival"), for the Sabbath and the Festivals, Nashim ("Women"), dealing primarily with marriage and divorce, Nezikin ("Damages"), for civil and criminal law, Kodashim ("Holy things"), for sacrifices and the dietary laws, and Tohorot* ("Purities") for ritual purity. However, Talmudic texts often deal with laws outside these apparent subject categories. As a result, Jewish law came to be categorized in other ways in the post-Talmudic period.
In the major codes of Jewish law, two other main categorization schemes are found. Maimonides' Mishneh Torah divides the laws into fourteen sections. The codification efforts that culminated in the Shulchan Aruch divide the law into four sections.
*Zeman Nakat means "hold onto time". I hope you all hold onto the time this Shabbat!
Shabbat Shalom!!
~Patty
Hi Patty,
I think we can not fully understand YHWH's covenants without an historical contextual or background. Over the last century, scholars have discovered that both the patriarchal and national covenants followed the same format and "covenant rules" for treaties around 1400 BCE. What scholars have discovered is that Israel's treaties most closely resemble Hittite treaties of that era. This is important because it gives us a guide on how to interpret Yah's covenants and how they should be used. I'm posting some good free online links to this research. BTW, Mendenhall is considered the pioneer in understanding ancient treaties.
http://home.earthlink.net/~cadman777/Law_Cov_Mendenhall_TITLE.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=Z0DJ3SXtSAQC&pg=PA71&lpg=P...
http://www.meredithkline.com/files/books/By_Oath_Consigned.html
One of the best talks is by a scholar who is also a Karaite. He has done two (very long) but thorough talks on the subjects of Israel's covenants at:
Part #1 -http://www.adrive.com/public/9d6af7fff3c4ec1ac81569980d07974bce9d34...
Part #2 -http://www.adrive.com/public/21f46be7a01c5db3866035d856f13a2633d17e...
Shalom,
Jodi
Hi Patty,
This past year I've done a lot of studying where covenants are concerned and would like to share one other point I've learned dealing with covenant and Sacrifice.
One point that has totally revolutionized my understanding is the role that the sacrifice played in relationship to the covenants. In every instance -both in the TNK and in the ancient world- the sacrifice associated with a covenant was self-imprecating. What that means is that the sacrifice depicted the death/holocaust of those who entered covenant, but failed to uphold it. This is important because no one could ever be substituted for this portion of the covenant. Here are some historical examples:
One great example is an eighth-century treaty that reads, “As this calf is cut to pieces so may Mati’el be cut to pieces” thus sealing Mati’el to the same fate as the sacrificial calf should he violate the treaty’s stipulations.[1] In another ancient Near Eastern treaty, the doner king vows: “(May I be cursed) if I take back what I gave you,”[2] again sealing the consequential fate of the covenantee. Another eighth century (BCE) Assyrian document likewise attests:
This ram was not taken from its flock for sacrifice….if Mati’ilu (shall violate) the covenant and oath to the gods, then, as this ram, which was taken from its flock and to its flock will not return, and at the head of its flock shall not stand, so Mati’ilu with his sons…shall violate this covenant… as the head of this ram shall be struck off so shall his head be struck off.[3]
This text vividly paints the consequences for breaching a treaty. The sacrifice accompanying the sealing of a covenant depicted the fate of the one who benefited from the covenant should he breach the stipulations to which he had agreed.[4] In parity treaties, both parties would bear the “curse of death” symbolized in the sacrifice if they failed to uphold the ratified treaty.[5]
The Significance of this act may have varied from country to country and from century to century, although there seems to be a fairly consistent interpretation of the act as a kind of self-imprecation, as though the participants in the treaty would say, ' If I break the treaty may this happen to me'. In the Old Testament the practice is clearly described in several passages, and may be inferred in others. In the ancient Near East it was certainly in use in the eighteenth century BC at Mari and Alalah while in the first millennium BC it is attested among the Aramaeans in the eighth century and among the Assyrians in the eighth1 and seventh centuries.[6]
The sacrifices associated with these ancient near eastern treaties evoked their solemnity and the weight of their worth. The symbolic sacrifice intended to hold each party accountable to the oath.
During the 13th century, Ramses II had invaded Hititite territory and a fierce battle ensued that ended in a stalemate. Eventually these two nations signed a treaty. One provision called for non-aggression. Another provision agreed that each nation would assure the king’s son’s hereditary succession to their respective thrones. The treaty associated with this covenant also listed blessings for adherence and curses for breach of their mutual pact (ANET p. 201)
All of this makes since, right? (Keep in mind the context of ANE treaties) Pharaoh Ramses II and the Hitite King made a treaty of non-aggression. Now imagine Ramses violated that treaty and invaded the Hittite territory. Would King Hattusilis respond by invading the King of Tyre who had not aided Egypt’s trespass? Or, would the Hittite king kill his own son because Ramses sinned against their covenant?
This is line of query has nothing to do with ANE thinking, but more to do with deviant theologies such as Molech and later Christian thinking where the firstborn must be sacrificed for his father’s, his family’s, or another entity’s sins.
If the king of Tyre paid either of Kings offences- it would hardly evoke the duty of the sacred oath.
Let’s look at this another way. Suppose the Philistines invaded Hittite territory and Egypt failed to come to their aid as agreed. Hittites would be too weak to revenge Egypt’s fractured alliance and therefore the curses of the treaty would be called upon the Egyptians who had failed to uphold their covenant. Again, the curses within the covenant would NOT fall on the king of Israel or the king of Tyre. Neither would the Hittite King sacrifice his own son because Pharaoh sinned against the treaty.
The same holds true for all of YHWH's covenants. He holds each of us responsible and if we disobey, sacrifice/holocaust will be rendered in us and our children. It cannot be fulfilled through a sorrogate or substitute.
Shalom,
Jodi
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