Where is it written Messiah would come twice?
Please give scripture (Hebrew Bible Only), where it states, messiah will come twice. Are there other places besides Isaiah, that state that he will come as a child.
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Permalink Reply by John Wickes on -
Hello again Tamla,
There is a saying in Rabbinic Judaism that the actions of the fathers are the precedents for the sons. An example that we would see and agree with is that Abraham went down into Egypt where Sarah was taken by Pharaoh. That would be the precedent for Israel going down into Egypt and being taken into slavery. Christianity uses Jesus as the passover lamb, precedent for his crucifixion. So these type of concepts.
In Rabbinic Judaism there are two 'Messiahs types' one is David which we are all familiar with. The second is Joseph. Joseph was favored by his father and claimed to be the leader of the family (his dreams) This upset the other brothers and he was sold to Egypt. None of Josephs dreams came true. It was only at his '2nd' appearance did they come true.
You have the same pattern in Moses. He was raised in Pharaoh's house but came out to be with his brothers. We have the story of him killing the Egyptian while rescuing a fellow Israelite. Then later he he tried to resolve a fight between two Israelis. They challenged him as to who appointed him judge over them and asked they were going to be killed as well as he did the Egyptian. Moses seemed to see himself as some sort of helper, leader of Israel. He only returned 40 years later to actually fulfill that role.
King David was anointed king over Israel even though Saul was king. He lived in hiding and fleeing until Saul died and only later did he actually become the king sitting on the throne.
So using this actions of the father are precedents of the sons we do see the pattern clearly. There is much more on this I have merely scratched the surface so that I could give answer you question.
now in Judaism there are different 'denominations' just as there are in Christianity and there are some who totally reject this method of reading and viewing the bible. So the first question is do you believe that God has revealed his plans, doings in this method or not. If you reject this way of viewing the bible not only is the two comings impossible, really Christianity is as well for most of the fulfillment of things by Jesus using this method.
For instance Jesus said 'if you believe Moses you would believe me for Moses spoke of me'. Now if you look through 'Moses' the Torah Gen - Deut. There is very very little about a coming messiah redeemer or the like. Maybe Deut 18 where it says there will be a prophet like me from among your brothers. But really that is about it. But if you do accept the interpretation of the Torah as 'foreshadowing' then it is loaded. Paul used this method without end. one place that has nothing to do with Jesus that you hear all the time is 'Do not muzzle the Ox while treading the grain.' Paul asks if this was said for the Ox's sake or something else. now of course it was for the Ox but he as well uses it to justify 'paid' church workers.
I hope that helped
John
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Permalink Reply by Sinai Servant on -
Shalom Tamla, you will not find any takers on providing any scriptures from the Hebrew Bible to answer your questions, because they simply do not exist. Even though this site is meant to be for those who desire to live according to the Hebrew Bible, the answers you are getting are coming from the christian writings. You really have to read into these false and erroneous writings. The christians of course just continue to perpetuate the same lies. The messianics only deal with half truths and as just seen will refer to things such as "Rabbinic Judaism" as if that is some authority in itself! Well, Rabbinic Judaism is also quite comfortable in referring to a month of the year by a pagan god's name - "tammuz" contrary to what the Torah teaches.
The truth is plain to those who are willing to let go of their idols and repent. But they will not, and just as Hosea says....Ephraim is addicted to idols (Hosea 4:17) There is none so blind as those who refuse to see! Unfortunately the messianic community is still holding on to traditons and the idols from antiquity. It is just christianity in Hebrew packaging. My prayer is I am sure your's is, that these people will be delivered from the deceptions of christian dogma.
Shavua tov
Sinai Servant
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Permalink Reply by Ross Nichols on -
For the sake of respectful challenge, I have a question. Where does the Hebrew Bible say that Messiah will come at all? I know that many who read this will immediately think of several passages. I am looking for something quite clear here in terms of referencing "messiah". I am not saying that such reference does or does not exist. I am asking for textual support. There may be references to a coming one or to coming "redemptive figures" for lack of a better designation, but are there any texts that say messiah is coming - once or twice? Perhaps this question will make people think and search! Shalom and have fun in the quest!
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Permalink Reply by Glenn C Judah on -
Shalom Tamla,
A good read on "Messiahs" is chapter 4 of James Tabors "Restoring Abrahamic Faith ".
For that matter, the whole book is very good.
Good luck in your search.
Glenn Judah
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Permalink Reply by David on -
Correct Johnny....One must define "Messiah".......
I like what is stated in Ps. 102 vs 16....Or for that matter Chapter 102 in the Psalms!
And I am reminded of the one thing "The Existing One" will do with HIS whole heart! And will there be an appearance following the restoration of "the Land"?
Also I find Isa 19:20 intriguing.....but thats just me!
dave
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Permalink Reply by John Wickes on
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When having a conversation about 'the messiah' everyone in every Torah based religions have a general idea of what we are talking about. It is a fundamental concept that Islam Christianity and Judaism is looking for, waiting for 'messiah'. Even in many religions outside of these three, the concept of 'messiah' exists albeit not necessarily pronounced that way. Now yes they may call it by another term in their own language but the concept of a man coming to do a great work that delivers his people is more a less the idea. Bringing it back to Islam Christianity and Judaism there will be many different verses in the Hebrew bible that will be referenced to back themselves that do not even use the word 'messiah' Duet 18 would be one. But yet all three religions will agree that 'messiah' would fulfill Duet 18- be a prophet that is like Moses that God raises up from your brothers-. But fighting would immediately break out as per the definition of 'whose brothers' and how 'like'. Even within Judaism itself there is huge debate about who is messiah what verses are to be use to define him and the like. So defining messiah although very interesting does not address the question of this form.
My point is Tamla asked a question. If we want to debate over what scriptures are messianic or not- great! But that doesn't address the question she asked. I've been going through many of the articles in this forum some I have interest in some not. But I have noticed that Tamla is searching, interested and wants to hear what is truth and why people believe what they believe. So I'm addressing her question and what I believe she is asking and what she is searching out for. My point is to give her things to think about in the context of her question. Everyone here KNOWS she is talking about the christian idea of 1st and 2nd coming. She wants to know if there is any scriptural basis of that belief. She is searching, lets help her out in the direction you believe is right.
Sanai Servant you don't have to bash Rabbinic because they say Tammuz, to bless this lady into what is you believe is right good and holy. Explain it to her why you think not. I would imagine that you use the words Mon. Tues Wed Thrus Fri Sat and Sun as well as the names of the first 8 months of the year. Does that mean you really believe that those astral spheres control those days and months with the power of the sub-gods behind them? Or does it simply mean you speak English with the desire to communicate clearly with out confusion to other people? I as well will be glad when all pagan references are purged from our languages but until then...
If I want to go out on a date with a pretty lady I'm going to ask her if she wants to go out with me Sat night. I'm not going to ask her if she'll go out with me 2 days after the full moon. What if she is a lunar Sabbatarian? Then she will be getting ready on Monday!?!?! If I asked her if she was a lunar Sabbatarian first to confirm which sabbath she goes by in all probably just look at me wondering what in the world I was talking about and thinking (I aint going anywhere with this guy) I'd lost the date before I even asked!!! Dating is already too complicated!!
So the question that Tamla asked is this- Is there Hebrew Bible basis for a 2nd coming? The answer is very simply is it depends on how you read the bible in combination with how you believe God reveals himself. Do you believe that he uses stories signs symbols and the like? Yes? Then there is-- here they are, whether you agree or not the pattern is there. Do you believe He doesn't? No? Then no really there isn't.
If one doesn't believe then explain to us why, I'm all ears I'm searching too. Why is this or that belief wrong? But if it is because someone used the name of a month, Tammuz then what about all the Pagan connected references in our language? Does that automatically make everything we believe wrong?
I don't believe in Rabbinical Judaism, but I study it because there are definitely wise words there. There is some pretty crazy stuff too. I'm not a Karaite but I study it because there are wise words there. I'm not a messianic and haven't studied it because I don't have any interest in things that occurred after Jesus in Christianity cuz it seems it was just mistake upon mistake. my methodology is not to back track through all the places I was wrong but go back to where the fork in the road was and try and find my way from there. If you just insult others you are just giving me a sure sign that your way is not the way.
So in trying to find out is there scriptures for a twice messiah Pharisees system (rabbinical) and Sadducee system (+- Karaite) among others were in wide spread use. That makes them an 'authority' not because they were right but because these were the methods/systems used at that time. How did they see the word of God? What were the methods of viewing the bible? Of the people who followed this 'messiah' what were their methods of using the word. With this information Tamla can start on making an informed search on the specific question at hand. If they say Tammuz or I say Monday or you say August has no relevance at all to the question at hand, nor to who is right or wrong
In the mean time may the God Almighty bless help and encourage each one of us who are seeking His Face, regardless of the back ground one comes from. There are many spokes on a wheel but they all go to the center but many on the way there some are completely the opposite, in time they will all be connected together at different places of the axle. That is speaking of searching by the way- not universalism. Sometimes having the 'right' answer is not exactly the point, but loving the Lord your God with all your heart soul.
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Permalink Reply by Allen on -
Tov addition.
John Wickes said:When having a conversation about 'the messiah' everyone in every Torah based religions have a general idea of what we are talking about. It is a fundamental concept that Islam Christianity and Judaism is looking for, waiting for 'messiah'. Even in many religions outside of these three, the concept of 'messiah' exists albeit not necessarily pronounced that way. Now yes they may call it by another term in their own language but the concept of a man coming to do a great work that delivers his people is more a less the idea. Bringing it back to Islam Christianity and Judaism there will be many different verses in the Hebrew bible that will be referenced to back themselves that do not even use the word 'messiah' Duet 18 would be one. But yet all three religions will agree that 'messiah' would fulfill Duet 18- be a prophet that is like Moses that God raises up from your brothers-. But fighting would immediately break out as per the definition of 'whose brothers' and how 'like'. Even within Judaism itself there is huge debate about who is messiah what verses are to be use to define him and the like. So defining messiah although very interesting does not address the question of this form.
My point is Tamla asked a question. If we want to debate over what scriptures are messianic or not- great! But that doesn't address the question she asked. I've been going through many of the articles in this forum some I have interest in some not. But I have noticed that Tamla is searching, interested and wants to hear what is truth and why people believe what they believe. So I'm addressing her question and what I believe she is asking and what she is searching out for. My point is to give her things to think about in the context of her question. Everyone here KNOWS she is talking about the christian idea of 1st and 2nd coming. She wants to know if there is any scriptural basis of that belief. She is searching, lets help her out in the direction you believe is right.
Sanai Servant you don't have to bash Rabbinic because they say Tammuz, to bless this lady into what is you believe is right good and holy. Explain it to her why you think not. I would imagine that you use the words Mon. Tues Wed Thrus Fri Sat and Sun as well as the names of the first 8 months of the year. Does that mean you really believe that those astral spheres control those days and months with the power of the sub-gods behind them? Or does it simply mean you speak English with the desire to communicate clearly with out confusion to other people? I as well will be glad when all pagan references are purged from our languages but until then...
If I want to go out on a date with a pretty lady I'm going to ask her if she wants to go out with me Sat night. I'm not going to ask her if she'll go out with me 2 days after the full moon. What if she is a lunar Sabbatarian? Then she will be getting ready on Monday!?!?! If I asked her if she was a lunar Sabbatarian first to confirm which sabbath she goes by in all probably just look at me wondering what in the world I was talking about and thinking (I aint going anywhere with this guy) I'd lost the date before I even asked!!! Dating is already too complicated!!
So the question that Tamla asked is this- Is there Hebrew Bible basis for a 2nd coming? The answer is very simply is it depends on how you read the bible in combination with how you believe God reveals himself. Do you believe that he uses stories signs symbols and the like? Yes? Then there is-- here they are, whether you agree or not the pattern is there. Do you believe He doesn't? No? Then no really there isn't.
If one doesn't believe then explain to us why, I'm all ears I'm searching too. Why is this or that belief wrong? But if it is because someone used the name of a month, Tammuz then what about all the Pagan connected references in our language? Does that automatically make everything we believe wrong?
I don't believe in Rabbinical Judaism, but I study it because there are definitely wise words there. There is some pretty crazy stuff too. I'm not a Karaite but I study it because there are wise words there. I'm not a messianic and haven't studied it because I don't have any interest in things that occurred after Jesus in Christianity cuz it seems it was just mistake upon mistake. my methodology is not to back track through all the places I was wrong but go back to where the fork in the road was and try and find my way from there. If you just insult others you are just giving me a sure sign that your way is not the way.
So in trying to find out is there scriptures for a twice messiah Pharisees system (rabbinical) and Sadducee system (+- Karaite) among others were in wide spread use. That makes them an 'authority' not because they were right but because these were the methods/systems used at that time. How did they see the word of God? What were the methods of viewing the bible? Of the people who followed this 'messiah' what were their methods of using the word. With this information Tamla can start on making an informed search on the specific question at hand. If they say Tammuz or I say Monday or you say August has no relevance at all to the question at hand, nor to who is right or wrong
In the mean time may the God Almighty bless help and encourage each one of us who are seeking His Face, regardless of the back ground one comes from. There are many spokes on a wheel but they all go to the center but many on the way there some are completely the opposite, in time they will all be connected together at different places of the axle. That is speaking of searching by the way- not universalism. Sometimes having the 'right' answer is not exactly the point, but loving the Lord your God with all your heart soul.
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Permalink Reply by Suzanne Andria venter on -
Hi Tamla
I quite this site but John lured me back!! Daniel 9:26 ...After sixty two sevens the Anointed One(Messiah) will be cut off and will have nothing, for me it is very clear,that the Messiah will be stopped,killed,what ever you want to call it.
Then go back to Daniel 7:13 In my vision at night I looked,and there before me was one like a son of man,coming with the clouds of heaven.He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence.14 He was given authority,glory and sovereign power all peoples,nations and menof every languageworshipped Him.His dominian is an everlasting dominian that will not pass away,and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. Clearly there is 2 "entities"
presented here, some one who is like the "son of man" and the "Ancient of Days"!!!
I said it on this site before Daniels 70 week prophecy is 3 layered. A very good teacher on this prophecy is Micheal Rood.
Blessings and shalom
Suzanne
Allen said:Tov addition.
John Wickes said:When having a conversation about 'the messiah' everyone in every Torah based religions have a general idea of what we are talking about. It is a fundamental concept that Islam Christianity and Judaism is looking for, waiting for 'messiah'. Even in many religions outside of these three, the concept of 'messiah' exists albeit not necessarily pronounced that way. Now yes they may call it by another term in their own language but the concept of a man coming to do a great work that delivers his people is more a less the idea. Bringing it back to Islam Christianity and Judaism there will be many different verses in the Hebrew bible that will be referenced to back themselves that do not even use the word 'messiah' Duet 18 would be one. But yet all three religions will agree that 'messiah' would fulfill Duet 18- be a prophet that is like Moses that God raises up from your brothers-. But fighting would immediately break out as per the definition of 'whose brothers' and how 'like'. Even within Judaism itself there is huge debate about who is messiah what verses are to be use to define him and the like. So defining messiah although very interesting does not address the question of this form.
My point is Tamla asked a question. If we want to debate over what scriptures are messianic or not- great! But that doesn't address the question she asked. I've been going through many of the articles in this forum some I have interest in some not. But I have noticed that Tamla is searching, interested and wants to hear what is truth and why people believe what they believe. So I'm addressing her question and what I believe she is asking and what she is searching out for. My point is to give her things to think about in the context of her question. Everyone here KNOWS she is talking about the christian idea of 1st and 2nd coming. She wants to know if there is any scriptural basis of that belief. She is searching, lets help her out in the direction you believe is right.
Sanai Servant you don't have to bash Rabbinic because they say Tammuz, to bless this lady into what is you believe is right good and holy. Explain it to her why you think not. I would imagine that you use the words Mon. Tues Wed Thrus Fri Sat and Sun as well as the names of the first 8 months of the year. Does that mean you really believe that those astral spheres control those days and months with the power of the sub-gods behind them? Or does it simply mean you speak English with the desire to communicate clearly with out confusion to other people? I as well will be glad when all pagan references are purged from our languages but until then...
If I want to go out on a date with a pretty lady I'm going to ask her if she wants to go out with me Sat night. I'm not going to ask her if she'll go out with me 2 days after the full moon. What if she is a lunar Sabbatarian? Then she will be getting ready on Monday!?!?! If I asked her if she was a lunar Sabbatarian first to confirm which sabbath she goes by in all probably just look at me wondering what in the world I was talking about and thinking (I aint going anywhere with this guy) I'd lost the date before I even asked!!! Dating is already too complicated!!
So the question that Tamla asked is this- Is there Hebrew Bible basis for a 2nd coming? The answer is very simply is it depends on how you read the bible in combination with how you believe God reveals himself. Do you believe that he uses stories signs symbols and the like? Yes? Then there is-- here they are, whether you agree or not the pattern is there. Do you believe He doesn't? No? Then no really there isn't.
If one doesn't believe then explain to us why, I'm all ears I'm searching too. Why is this or that belief wrong? But if it is because someone used the name of a month, Tammuz then what about all the Pagan connected references in our language? Does that automatically make everything we believe wrong?
I don't believe in Rabbinical Judaism, but I study it because there are definitely wise words there. There is some pretty crazy stuff too. I'm not a Karaite but I study it because there are wise words there. I'm not a messianic and haven't studied it because I don't have any interest in things that occurred after Jesus in Christianity cuz it seems it was just mistake upon mistake. my methodology is not to back track through all the places I was wrong but go back to where the fork in the road was and try and find my way from there. If you just insult others you are just giving me a sure sign that your way is not the way.
So in trying to find out is there scriptures for a twice messiah Pharisees system (rabbinical) and Sadducee system (+- Karaite) among others were in wide spread use. That makes them an 'authority' not because they were right but because these were the methods/systems used at that time. How did they see the word of God? What were the methods of viewing the bible? Of the people who followed this 'messiah' what were their methods of using the word. With this information Tamla can start on making an informed search on the specific question at hand. If they say Tammuz or I say Monday or you say August has no relevance at all to the question at hand, nor to who is right or wrong
In the mean time may the God Almighty bless help and encourage each one of us who are seeking His Face, regardless of the back ground one comes from. There are many spokes on a wheel but they all go to the center but many on the way there some are completely the opposite, in time they will all be connected together at different places of the axle. That is speaking of searching by the way- not universalism. Sometimes having the 'right' answer is not exactly the point, but loving the Lord your God with all your heart soul.
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Permalink Reply by Suzanne Andria venter on
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Hi Ross
Again Daniel 9:24-29,is it true,that in the Talmud it is written that know one is allowed to declare or reveal the meaning of Daniels 70 week (Shavuim)? Michael Rood and D. Brutin show exactly when, date,day and year when the Messiah will be born and when He will return using the 70 week(shavuim)
Greetings and shalom
Suzanne
Ross Nichols said:For the sake of respectful challenge, I have a question. Where does the Hebrew Bible say that Messiah will come at all? I know that many who read this will immediately think of several passages. I am looking for something quite clear here in terms of referencing "messiah". I am not saying that such reference does or does not exist. I am asking for textual support. There may be references to a coming one or to coming "redemptive figures" for lack of a better designation, but are there any texts that say messiah is coming - once or twice? Perhaps this question will make people think and search! Shalom and have fun in the quest!
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Permalink Reply by pilgrim on -
While there is no direct verse, I believe, that says "the messiah" there are many that speak of the "messianic" age which do imply "the" messiah.
The verses of Jer. 23:4-11 and Is. chapter 11 are just 2 of many. Also, one can argue that these do speak of the coming of messiah.
There are no two comings in the Tanakh, but, more importantly, there is no Jesus in the Tanakh? Can anyone give a verse for Jesus in the Tanakh?
Please, no hidden meanings or "if we would accept it" themes.
Is. 45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a place of the land of darkness; I said not unto the seed of Jacob: 'Seek ye Me in vain'; I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
The deception of "christianity" is that they redefine all things to meet their need. They say Jesus is god so that all versus which apply to God, can be then said to apply to Jesus. They can also make any element of the Tanakh point to, and be made to point to some NT writing. They even make Israel to be Jesus as they twist and plead the text of Is. 53.
Talmudic writings are a tricky thing for those who do not have a Jewish mind or understanding. IF one claims two comings of the messiah based on "David" and "Joseph" then one must also accept the whole writing and state that these are two different persons. Not one who comes twice.
When one turns the bible into a thematic work, then anything can be created out of whole cloth. The "big" question is, what does God think of taking his revelation and using it to support a false teaching?
E.g. Elijah and his chariot going to heaven is really a foreshadowing of Mohammad and his flight on the winged horse, and rise to heaven. We can always "make" something fit. Or, I am Elijah, my proof is that, the prophet said I will come before the day of the Lord. The Lord has not yet come, therefore, I must be Elijah, and anything you claim I have not fulfilled, i tell you that I will, maybe tomorrow.
There is way toooo much "this seems to, or could", in Christianity.
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Permalink Reply by John Wickes on
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Thanks for that comment Les, to put your words in another format- I am picking and choosing what I want to accept and what I don't. I would say yes in way you are right. But really don't all of us pick and choose what we think is right? From the little that I have read on this site most of us have come from a place that we saw problems from where we were at. We chose to think differently. The point being that I don't accept Rabbinic writings as 'the word of God' but I won't argue that there may have been inspired thoughts visions and the like. I feel that the Word of God is profound obviously as everyone else here. I also feel that it is good to hear others points of view, listen and weigh. Each person has to go through this process and see if they think what is being said by who ever if it 'rings true'. I do accept the Tanakh as the Word of God with out doubt. An from there I judge other writings, yes according to my own judgment. We all guide our own houses according to what we believe is right. I see nothing in the Bible that requires me to swallow the Talmud whole. But I as well see nothing that tells me they were all totally idiots. To quote Paul who was actually passing on a saying from the Fathers, we see through a glass dimly. So I read, study, weigh and try and glean from things to understand. But honestly not to my own means. I want to know God who he is and how he expresses himself to man. I really don't care (on a level) who messiah is. I just want to be in God's ways. in Jer 22 he said
Jer 22:16
16 He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well with him: was not this to know me? saith the LORD.
(KJV)
The base of God and 'knowing him' is showing care to the poor and needy spiritually physically and how ever else. The rest is 'commentary' to quote Hillel a bit out of context. (he actually said 'what is hurtful to you don't do to another') But God's commentary is lovely excellent and good.
So yes I am picking a choosing. But my hope and prayer is that it is according to the mind of God, and I as well only see through a very dark glass dimly. In the mean time I take care of the poor and needy, do justly love mercy, walk humbly with our God.
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