Forgive us our Sins/Debts
The "Lord's Prayer" is found in two versions in the N.T., one in Matthew 6:9-13, the other in Luke 11:2-5. The one most familiar to people is in Matthew, and many have the KJV translation in their heads, or even memorized word for word. It is most instructive to compare the two versions side by side, they are quite different, and scholars are convinced that it is Luke who represents the more original, primitive version of the prayer, while Matthew offers a more "liturgical" expansion. Luke seems "stripped down" and has a more "staccato" feel to it when you read it aloud. There are also quite a few textual variants, meaning there are Greek manuscripts that differ here and their in their readings. The best know of these if of course the famous "Doxology" that is included in the KJV/Byzantine ms. "For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, forever and ever, Amen," but is considered almost universally to be a later addition.
These two sections of Matthew (chap 6) and Luke (chap 11) are also part of what scholars call the Q source, which was an independent document, a pre-gospel "gospel," which included a collection of the sayings/teachings of Jesus. Many scholars, for this reason, are willing to consider the "Lord's Prayer," at least in Luke's version, as authentically from Jesus himself.
There is lots to note in the two versions of the prayer, as well as looking at the variants.
The prayer itself consists of five petitions. I wanted to offer some comments here on the 4th--the one about "forgiveness," which interestingly enough is the petition that Jesus also elaborates in Matthew 6:14-15 (if you forgive others, the Father will forgive you; if not He will not)
The most obvious difference in this petition in Matthew and Luke is that Matthew has "forgive us our debts" while Luke has "forgive us our sins." This sounds like a huge difference in English but in Greek, Luke goes on to say, "as we forgive those indebted to us"--so his focus is also primarily on the image of "debt." Also, the verb in each case means "forgive" in the sense of lift, take off, remove, and even today we talk of a bank or even a lender "forgiving a debt." The word "sin" in English can be quite misleading, at least in the connotations it carries. It means in Greek, "to miss the mark," or to put it more in this context--to obligate oneself by a failing or falling short. Also, in Matthew 6:14-15, when Jesus expands on the forgiveness petition, he does in fact use the word translated "trespass," which means to step over the line.
Hebrew Matthew is a great help here since the clear meaning of the Hebrew terms (as explained in the Gordon/Johnson book) is that of forgiving debt, so that "failures," call them sins or stepping over the lines, create "obligations," on "indebtedness." In other words, there are consequences that have to be dealt with or "paid."
This means the common idea of guilt and punishment being the focus--i.e., let us off the hook so we won't be responsible, is simply incorrect. The focus of this petition is the notion that our failings with others, and with God, create "debt" that obligates us consequentially. That debt can be "lifted" by God, as we "lift" the debt in which others are held by us through their failings. It means giving us/them a clean slate, a new start--just as one would feel if some enormous obligation of "debt" were suddenly removed!
I hope Nehemia might jump in here, or others as this is truly an important and amazing concept that could bear further discussion and clarification...
These two sections of Matthew (chap 6) and Luke (chap 11) are also part of what scholars call the Q source, which was an independent document, a pre-gospel "gospel," which included a collection of the sayings/teachings of Jesus. Many scholars, for this reason, are willing to consider the "Lord's Prayer," at least in Luke's version, as authentically from Jesus himself.
There is lots to note in the two versions of the prayer, as well as looking at the variants.
The prayer itself consists of five petitions. I wanted to offer some comments here on the 4th--the one about "forgiveness," which interestingly enough is the petition that Jesus also elaborates in Matthew 6:14-15 (if you forgive others, the Father will forgive you; if not He will not)
The most obvious difference in this petition in Matthew and Luke is that Matthew has "forgive us our debts" while Luke has "forgive us our sins." This sounds like a huge difference in English but in Greek, Luke goes on to say, "as we forgive those indebted to us"--so his focus is also primarily on the image of "debt." Also, the verb in each case means "forgive" in the sense of lift, take off, remove, and even today we talk of a bank or even a lender "forgiving a debt." The word "sin" in English can be quite misleading, at least in the connotations it carries. It means in Greek, "to miss the mark," or to put it more in this context--to obligate oneself by a failing or falling short. Also, in Matthew 6:14-15, when Jesus expands on the forgiveness petition, he does in fact use the word translated "trespass," which means to step over the line.
Hebrew Matthew is a great help here since the clear meaning of the Hebrew terms (as explained in the Gordon/Johnson book) is that of forgiving debt, so that "failures," call them sins or stepping over the lines, create "obligations," on "indebtedness." In other words, there are consequences that have to be dealt with or "paid."
This means the common idea of guilt and punishment being the focus--i.e., let us off the hook so we won't be responsible, is simply incorrect. The focus of this petition is the notion that our failings with others, and with God, create "debt" that obligates us consequentially. That debt can be "lifted" by God, as we "lift" the debt in which others are held by us through their failings. It means giving us/them a clean slate, a new start--just as one would feel if some enormous obligation of "debt" were suddenly removed!
I hope Nehemia might jump in here, or others as this is truly an important and amazing concept that could bear further discussion and clarification...
Views: 7
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gina on -
Dr Tabor,
I'm not sure I fully get this concept. I was with you right up until the point on "that of forgiving debt creates obligations" and "the common idea of guilt and punishment". If we are unforgiving of others does that mean we are holding them hostage so to speak? There are debts to be paid when one makes a mistake, sometimes for life. So in the same turn, if we are unable to forgive ourselves do we hold ourself captive to that debt? It sounds like in the paragraph near the end that starts with "Hebrew Matthew" is that when we forgive someone for the wrong that they did, it creates a debt. Are you talking about "reciprocal justice"? I've always thought that if one still feels convicted of a mistake or still paying the debt for a mistake that God could not have forgiven or a person would not feel that way. -
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Permalink Reply by James Daniel Tabor on -
You might have misread the sentence that threw you off...I did not write that "forgiving debt creates obligations," but rather that failures/sins created "obligations." No forgiving removes the "debt" just as if a bank would (I wish!) suddenly "forgive" my American Express card this month! But your point on forgiving ones self is well taken and I need to think about that one. Very interesting idea.
Gina said:Dr Tabor,
I'm not sure I fully get this concept. I was with you right up until the point on "that of forgiving debt creates obligations" and "the common idea of guilt and punishment". If we are unforgiving of others does that mean we are holding them hostage so to speak? There are debts to be paid when one makes a mistake, sometimes for life. So in the same turn, if we are unable to forgive ourselves do we hold ourself captive to that debt? It sounds like in the paragraph near the end that starts with "Hebrew Matthew" is that when we forgive someone for the wrong that they did, it creates a debt. Are you talking about "reciprocal justice"? I've always thought that if one still feels convicted of a mistake or still paying the debt for a mistake that God could not have forgiven or a person would not feel that way. -
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Permalink Reply by Kim on -
This reminds me of the blessing before the Bedtime Shema. :
Master of the universe, I hereby forgive anyone who angered or antagonized me or who sinned against me...May no man be punished because of me. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d and G-d of my fathers, that I may sin no more. Whatever sins I have done before you, may you blot out in your abundant mercies, but not through suffering or bad illnesses. May the expressions of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart find favor before you, Hashem, my Rock and my Redeemer.
Artscroll Siddur
(There is a reference to Mishnah Berurah 239:1:9 anyone is interested in looking it up.) -
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Permalink Reply by James Daniel Tabor on
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Yes, I am quite amazed, in reading through the Siddur, how often one comes upon phrasing that is shared in common with not only this prayer Yeshua taught, but other concepts and ideas as well, particularly the "liturgical." You know the highly disputed tradition perhaps, that Shimon/Cephas the apostle (yes, that's Simon Peter of the N.T.) actually wrote the section of Sabbath morning prayer/Shacharit in the Jewish Prayer book called "Nishmat Kol Chai," the "Breath of every living things..." If you are not familiar with this tradition, found in the margins of various older prayer books, there is a nice discussion of the idea at: http://www.globalyeshiva.com/forum/topics/curious-anecdote-discovered
Anyway, here is the Prayer and it is quite beautiful:
The breath of every living thing shall bless Thy name, O Lord our G-d! And the spirit of all flesh shall ever glorify and extol Thy memory, O our King! For generation after generation, from everlasting unto everlasting, Thou art G-d! But for Thee, there is no G-d; neither do we have any King, Redeemer or Deliverer in all times of trouble and distress but Thee! He that redeems and rescues; He that gives sustenance and shows mercy, even the G-d of all living creatures, the Lord of all generations that were ever born! Thou art He that is extolled by their praises! He that rules His world with loving kindness and His creatures with manifold tender mercies; Now the Lord G-d is the truth, He does not slumber, neither does He sleep. Thou art He that arouses those that sleep, and awakenest those that slumber; He that upholds those that fall, who heals the sick, who loosens those that are bound; it is to Thee that we give thanks.
Were our mouths filled with song as the sea, our tongues with joyful praise as the multitude of its waves, and our lips with adoration as the spacious firmament; were our eyes radiant as the sun and the moon, and our hands spread forth like the eagles of the sky, and our feet swift as hinds, we would still be unable to thank Thee, O Lord our G-d, or to bless Thy name, our King, [as becometh Thee], be it for one measure of the thousands upon thousands, and the abundant myriads upon myriads of times which Thou hast done good unto us and unto our fathers in ages past!
From Egypt Thou didst redeem us, O Lord our G-d! From the house of bondage Thou didst ransom us! During famine Thou didst feed us, and in time of plenty Thou didst sustain us! From the sword Thou didst save us, and from pestilence Thou hast caused us to escape, and from many sore ailments Thou hast lifted us up, O our King! Hitherto, Thy tender mercies have helped us, O Lord our G-d, whilst Thy loving-kindness hast not forsaken us!
Therefore, the limbs which Thou hast fashioned in us, and the spirit and soul which Thou hast breathed into our nasals, and the tongue which Thou hast set in our mouth, lo, they, by joyous singing, shall thank Thee and shall bless Thy name, O Lord our G-d, over the abundance of Thy miraculous wonders! For every mouth shall to Thee give thanks, and every tongue shall to Thee give praise, and every eye unto Thee shall look, whilst every knee unto Thee shall bend, and all that standeth shall bow down before Thee. All hearts shall then revere Thee, and [man's] inmost being and reins shall sing to Thy name, as it is written: 'All my bones shall say: O Lord, who is like unto Thee, which deliverest the poor from him that is too strong for him, yea, the poor and the needy from him that spoileth him?' (Ps. 35:10). And it is written: 'Rejoice in the Lord, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright.' (Ps. 33:1).
By the mouth of the upright, be Thou exalted! By the words of the righteous, be Thou blest! By the tongue of all pious men, be Thou sanctified! And in the midst of the holy, be Thou praised! Whilst in the assemblies of the multitudes of Thy people, even the whole house of Israel, may Thy name be glorified, O Lord our G-d. For such is the duty of all creatures towards Thee, O Lord our G-d, to give thanks, to laud, to praise, to glorify, to exalt, to magnify and to honour, even beyond all the words of song and praise uttered by David, the son of Jesse, Thine anointed!
Kim Molnar said:This reminds me of the blessing before the Bedtime Shema. :
Master of the universe, I hereby forgive anyone who angered or antagonized me or who sinned against me...May no man be punished because of me. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d and G-d of my fathers, that I may sin no more. Whatever sins I have done before you, may you blot out in your abundant mercies, but not through suffering or bad illnesses. May the expressions of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart find favor before you, Hashem, my Rock and my Redeemer.
Artscroll Siddur
(There is a reference to Mishnah Berurah 239:1:9 anyone is interested in looking it up.) -
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Permalink Reply by Gina on
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Boy ya'll, both those prayers were so beautiful. I was just speechless as I read them and what an impact they had on me. Speaking of forgiveness, could ya'll pull out the verses in your Hebrew Bible(I don't have one) that command us that before we are to bring any gifts to HaShem's alter that if we hold anything against our brother, go and straighten that out and then bring your gift to HaShem.This site is so different from what the norm is for me. I'm so confused about the rituals that are mentioned on this site so bear with my questions. Thank you for your input
James Tabor said:Yes, I am quite amazed, in reading through the Siddur, how often one comes upon phrasing that is shared in common with not only this prayer Yeshua taught, but other concepts and ideas as well, particularly the "liturgical." You know the highly disputed tradition perhaps, that Shimon/Cephas the apostle (yes, that's Simon Peter of the N.T.) actually wrote the section of Sabbath morning prayer/Shacharit in the Jewish Prayer book called "Nishmat Kol Chai," the "Breath of every living things..." If you are not familiar with this tradition, found in the margins of various older prayer books, there is a nice discussion of the idea at: http://www.globalyeshiva.com/forum/topics/curious-anecdote-discovered
Anyway, here is the Prayer and it is quite beautiful:
The breath of every living thing shall bless Thy name, O Lord our G-d! And the spirit of all flesh shall ever glorify and extol Thy memory, O our King! For generation after generation, from everlasting unto everlasting, Thou art G-d! But for Thee, there is no G-d; neither do we have any King, Redeemer or Deliverer in all times of trouble and distress but Thee! He that redeems and rescues; He that gives sustenance and shows mercy, even the G-d of all living creatures, the Lord of all generations that were ever born! Thou art He that is extolled by their praises! He that rules His world with loving kindness and His creatures with manifold tender mercies; Now the Lord G-d is the truth, He does not slumber, neither does He sleep. Thou art He that arouses those that sleep, and awakenest those that slumber; He that upholds those that fall, who heals the sick, who loosens those that are bound; it is to Thee that we give thanks.
Were our mouths filled with song as the sea, our tongues with joyful praise as the multitude of its waves, and our lips with adoration as the spacious firmament; were our eyes radiant as the sun and the moon, and our hands spread forth like the eagles of the sky, and our feet swift as hinds, we would still be unable to thank Thee, O Lord our G-d, or to bless Thy name, our King, [as becometh Thee], be it for one measure of the thousands upon thousands, and the abundant myriads upon myriads of times which Thou hast done good unto us and unto our fathers in ages past!
From Egypt Thou didst redeem us, O Lord our G-d! From the house of bondage Thou didst ransom us! During famine Thou didst feed us, and in time of plenty Thou didst sustain us! From the sword Thou didst save us, and from pestilence Thou hast caused us to escape, and from many sore ailments Thou hast lifted us up, O our King! Hitherto, Thy tender mercies have helped us, O Lord our G-d, whilst Thy loving-kindness hast not forsaken us!
Therefore, the limbs which Thou hast fashioned in us, and the spirit and soul which Thou hast breathed into our nasals, and the tongue which Thou hast set in our mouth, lo, they, by joyous singing, shall thank Thee and shall bless Thy name, O Lord our G-d, over the abundance of Thy miraculous wonders! For every mouth shall to Thee give thanks, and every tongue shall to Thee give praise, and every eye unto Thee shall look, whilst every knee unto Thee shall bend, and all that standeth shall bow down before Thee. All hearts shall then revere Thee, and [man's] inmost being and reins shall sing to Thy name, as it is written: 'All my bones shall say: O Lord, who is like unto Thee, which deliverest the poor from him that is too strong for him, yea, the poor and the needy from him that spoileth him?' (Ps. 35:10). And it is written: 'Rejoice in the Lord, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright.' (Ps. 33:1).
By the mouth of the upright, be Thou exalted! By the words of the righteous, be Thou blest! By the tongue of all pious men, be Thou sanctified! And in the midst of the holy, be Thou praised! Whilst in the assemblies of the multitudes of Thy people, even the whole house of Israel, may Thy name be glorified, O Lord our G-d. For such is the duty of all creatures towards Thee, O Lord our G-d, to give thanks, to laud, to praise, to glorify, to exalt, to magnify and to honour, even beyond all the words of song and praise uttered by David, the son of Jesse, Thine anointed!
Kim Molnar said:This reminds me of the blessing before the Bedtime Shema. :
Master of the universe, I hereby forgive anyone who angered or antagonized me or who sinned against me...May no man be punished because of me. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d and G-d of my fathers, that I may sin no more. Whatever sins I have done before you, may you blot out in your abundant mercies, but not through suffering or bad illnesses. May the expressions of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart find favor before you, Hashem, my Rock and my Redeemer.
Artscroll Siddur
(There is a reference to Mishnah Berurah 239:1:9 anyone is interested in looking it up.) -
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Permalink Reply by BatYah Spiker on -
Gina, I believe this is what you are referring to:
Mat 5:21 “You heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,’ and whoever murders shall be liable to judgment.
Mat 5:22 “But I say to you that whoever is wroth with his brother without a cause shall be liable to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raka!’ shall be liable to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to fire of Gehenna.
Mat 5:23 “If, then, you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother holds whatever against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go, first make peace with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
BatYah -
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Permalink Reply by Gina on
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BatYah,
That's it! I've always wondered about the part "without cause". Humans are good at thinking they have cause so how does one decide they have cause? I don't think it's good to be angry at anyone regardless but there are times that a person does have to learn to stay away from those that do stuff to hurt us on a regular basis. Sometimes you have to love people from a distance. What if you have done all that you can but it still does not change anything?
BatYah Spiker said:Gina, I believe this is what you are referring to:
Mat 5:21 “You heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,’ and whoever murders shall be liable to judgment.
Mat 5:22 “But I say to you that whoever is wroth with his brother without a cause shall be liable to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raka!’ shall be liable to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to fire of Gehenna.
Mat 5:23 “If, then, you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother holds whatever against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go, first make peace with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
BatYah -
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Permalink Reply by Tom Moniz on -
Hi James,
As I see it, there cannot be shalom (peace) until shalem (repayment) is made. So, when we owe a debt whether due to sin or monetary, they must be repayed, made whole, restitution. It is when one finds themselves with "insufficient funds" to make the repayment that one is put in a position to have to forgive the debt.
We have a God in heaven Whom we look to to forgive us of our debts and transgressions, for we have "insufficient funds" to pay restitution. Conversly, on this other "plane of existence" we have this other god (money) which enacts stricter and more egregious punishments upon the debtors, never releasing debt.
Both concerning sin and monetary debt, if only this world today would follow the Shabbat year laws, and the releasing of debt, you can imagine how much more like the Kingdom this world would look.
Sincerely,
Tom -
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