Are Nations Required by YHWH to Keep the Law?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Karen R. on October 5, 2009 at 11:16pm

Great discussion, Sandra and Hezekiah. Thanks for posting all the great Scriptures. I am listing a few more that, in my opinion, show that there is one God and one law.

Exo 12:49 - The same law will apply to the person who is native-born and to the foreigner who lives among you.”

Num 15:29 - You must have one law for the person who sins unintentionally, both for the native-born among the Israelites and for the resident foreigner who lives among them.

Lev 24:22 - There will be one regulation for you, whether a foreigner or a native citizen, for I am the Lord your God.’”

Lev 18:26 - You yourselves must obey my statutes and my regulations and must not do any of these abominations, both the native citizen and the resident foreigner in your midst.

I am looking forward to more discussions.

Blessings,

Karen R.

Permalink Reply by Sandra Zawada on October 7, 2009 at 8:58am

Hi, thanks for all the information. Please sign your name so we can keep track of who is saying what. Thanks.

SanDee

Hezakiah Levinson said:

Karen R. said:

Great discussion, Sandra and Hezekiah. Thanks for posting all the great Scriptures. I am listing a few more that, in my opinion, show that there is one God and one law.

Exo 12:49 - The same law will apply to the person who is native-born and to the foreigner who lives among you.”

Num 15:29 - You must have one law for the person who sins unintentionally, both for the native-born among the Israelites and for the resident foreigner who lives among them.

Lev 24:22 - There will be one regulation for you, whether a foreigner or a native citizen, for I am the Lord your God.’”

Lev 18:26 - You yourselves must obey my statutes and my regulations and must not do any of these abominations, both the native citizen and the resident foreigner in your midst.

I am looking forward to more discussions.

Blessings,

Karen R.

All that you posted concern native born and gentiles that convert. If you look at what I posted,you can see that non-Israelites that don't convert can do things absolutely forbidden to Israelites and vice versa.If there was one law for everyone that didn't differenciate, then the "stranger" that bought an animal that died of itself couldn't eat it as it says in Torah and they could eat the pascal lamb.

While to be simply circumcised was the way to become part of the Avrahamic covenant.
Gen 17: 9. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

A convert to the Sinai Covenant was different, since it involved also following the Laws given Moses, which didn't exist before Sinai.It is also by a choice,not just the action otherwise you would have to say that everyone that has been circumcised for the simple reason that it has been considered cleaner would now be bound to Torah law, including some African tribes that do it in pagan ritual.

Permalink Reply by Sandra Zawada on October 13, 2009 at 1:34pm

Well, from what all of you have written I would say that the Children of Israel and the nations are not the same. Some of what was quoted is definitely at the end of Jacob's Trouble when the nations will have to bow to the Creator after they were defeated by the Creator and the Mashiach.

From what I see has been shared the foreigner can join himself to the Children of Israel and have most of the same privileges and can join this group of people. But don't you agree that they are definitely separate?

Now here is my next question:

If the Children of Israel were dispersed among the nations and the Children of Israel do not even know (for the most part) who they are, then are they still required to keep the Law -- even if the 10 tribes are divorced and the 2 tribes were also dispersed to other nations?

SanDee

Permalink Reply by Sandra Zawada on October 13, 2009 at 10:06pm

Hezakiah Levinson said:

Sandra Zawada said:

Well, from what all of you have written I would say that the Children of Israel and the nations are not the same. Some of what was quoted is definitely at the end of Jacob's Trouble when the nations will have to bow to the Creator after they were defeated by the Creator and the Mashiach.

From what I see has been shared the foreigner can join himself to the Children of Israel and have most of the same privileges and can join this group of people. But don't you agree that they are definitely separate?

Now here is my next question:

If the Children of Israel were dispersed among the nations and the Children of Israel do not even know (for the most part) who they are, then are they still required to keep the Law -- even if the 10 tribes are divorced and the 2 tribes were also dispersed to other nations?

SanDee

LOL. You haven't noticed there are over 16 million of us Jews on the planet and we practice Judaism. We all know we are B'nei Yisroel for a fact. While not all are Orthodox, the other two braches observe the Torah in at least some degree. You also seem a bit confused as to the tribes.There were members of all twelve tribes in both the Nortern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom. The name of Ephraim for the north is taken since that area was land that was mostly given to Ephraim and Mannesah also known as the two sub-tribes of Joseph.The Southern Kingdom was known as Judah since that land was predominately the land given to the tribe of Judah.

You really didn't think that only the tribe of Judah was in the south and only Ephraim in the north did you?After the civil war that split Israel into two kingdoms and before the Assyrian invasion,where did you think the other ten tribes were? Obviously not vacationing in Miami since that didn't exist yet (just teasing :) ). What about the members that were of the ten that returned after the Babylonian exile? Each tribe made it's own offerings after returning to the land. Ezra was during and after the Babylonian exile.

Ezra 6:15. And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.
16. And the children of Israel, the priests, and the Levites, and the rest of the children of the captivity, kept the dedication of this house of God with joy.
17. And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.
18. And they set the priests in their divisions, and the Levites in their courses, for the service of God, which is at Jerusalem; as it is written in the book of Moses.

Then,going back to the Assyrian exile of the north, not everyone was taken into captivity.Yes,it says it was empty in the Tanakh,but then empty of who? Royalty,craftsman and artisons were the ones that would have been taken;not the common man. Recent archaelogical finds show some interesting facts.

The chain of events leading to Israel's fall and massive deportation began with the Assyrian monarch Tiglath-pileser III. In three campaigns he implemented what historians call the Galilean captivity (ca. 733-732 B.C.). He captured Damascus and established a military presence at the border of Egypt. He deported into the upper Mesopotamian River valley large segments of the Reubenite, Gaddite and Transjordan Manassite populations (1 Chronicles 5:26) and Naphtali and cities in the territories of Issachar, Zebulun and Asher (2 Kings 15:29).

The Assyrian monarch Shalmaneser V initiated and carried out most of the climactic 724-722 B.C. campaign into the remainder of the northern kingdom. Shalmaneser, however, "was deposed soon afterwards by another king, Sargon II. This name, 'True King,' seems to betray the suspect nature of Sargon's claim to the throne...Sargon II moved the Assyrian capital to his own foundation of Khorsabad, built in imitation of Nimrud, and the older city was neglected...Shalmaneser V...did not have time to commemorate his achievements in stone, and it was his successor, Sargon II, who claimed credit for the victory" (Julian Reade, Assyrian Sculpture, pp. 48, 65). Sargon,who finished the war, records on the tablets state he took less than 28,000 people.

From the documents that presumably refer to the Israelites, or for that matter to any other exiles, it is evident that as a rule they did not possess the status of slaves or of an oppressed population. The exiles were first settled in Mesopotamia as land tenants of the king (cf. the words of Rab-Shakeh in II Kings 18:32), while the craftsmen among them were employed in state enterprises. Eventually, some of the exiles achieved economic and social status and even occupied high-ranking positions in the Assyrian administration. They were given the right to agricultural holdings and to observe the customs of their forefathers, and enjoyed a certain measure of internal autonomy. The striking of roots in Mesopotamian society by a large part of the descendants of the Israelite exiles resulted in their eventual absorption into the foreign milieu. Nevertheless, part of the Israelite community undoubtedly preserved its distinct national character and maintained connections with the homeland (cf. II Kings 17:28), later merging with the Judean exile. The return to Zion apparently included remnants of the ten tribes, as alluded to in the Bible (see the prophecies concerning national unification in Ezek. 16:53ff.; 37:16ff.; and cf. Zech. 8:13; 10:6ff.) and as indicated in the genealogical lists of Ezra and Nehemiah (cf., e.g., Ezra 2:2; Neh. 7:7).

There is also the fact that the population suddenly expanded in the Southern Kingdom during the Assyrian war due to "refugees" from the north coming south.

Permalink Reply by Sandra Zawada on October 13, 2009 at 10:06pm

Yes, I noticed that there are over 16 million Jews and they know they are Jews. They are the only ones that were not divorced by the Creator so they are the only visible tribes to the world. I know the Jews are not all Orthodox as I went to Synagogue for a year and was studying to become a Jew a number of years ago. Yes, I know that the northern tribe is now known as Ephraim and was known as Israel and the southern kingdom was known as Judah.

But anyway, you missed my point entirely.


Sandra Zawada said:

Hezakiah Levinson said:

Sandra Zawada said:

Well, from what all of you have written I would say that the Children of Israel and the nations are not the same. Some of what was quoted is definitely at the end of Jacob's Trouble when the nations will have to bow to the Creator after they were defeated by the Creator and the Mashiach.

From what I see has been shared the foreigner can join himself to the Children of Israel and have most of the same privileges and can join this group of people. But don't you agree that they are definitely separate?

Now here is my next question:

If the Children of Israel were dispersed among the nations and the Children of Israel do not even know (for the most part) who they are, then are they still required to keep the Law -- even if the 10 tribes are divorced and the 2 tribes were also dispersed to other nations?

SanDee

LOL. You haven't noticed there are over 16 million of us Jews on the planet and we practice Judaism. We all know we are B'nei Yisroel for a fact. While not all are Orthodox, the other two braches observe the Torah in at least some degree. You also seem a bit confused as to the tribes.There were members of all twelve tribes in both the Nortern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom. The name of Ephraim for the north is taken since that area was land that was mostly given to Ephraim and Mannesah also known as the two sub-tribes of Joseph.The Southern Kingdom was known as Judah since that land was predominately the land given to the tribe of Judah.

You really didn't think that only the tribe of Judah was in the south and only Ephraim in the north did you?After the civil war that split Israel into two kingdoms and before the Assyrian invasion,where did you think the other ten tribes were? Obviously not vacationing in Miami since that didn't exist yet (just teasing :) ). What about the members that were of the ten that returned after the Babylonian exile? Each tribe made it's own offerings after returning to the land. Ezra was during and after the Babylonian exile.

Ezra 6:15. And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.
16. And the children of Israel, the priests, and the Levites, and the rest of the children of the captivity, kept the dedication of this house of God with joy.
17. And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.
18. And they set the priests in their divisions, and the Levites in their courses, for the service of God, which is at Jerusalem; as it is written in the book of Moses.

Then,going back to the Assyrian exile of the north, not everyone was taken into captivity.Yes,it says it was empty in the Tanakh,but then empty of who? Royalty,craftsman and artisons were the ones that would have been taken;not the common man. Recent archaelogical finds show some interesting facts.

The chain of events leading to Israel's fall and massive deportation began with the Assyrian monarch Tiglath-pileser III. In three campaigns he implemented what historians call the Galilean captivity (ca. 733-732 B.C.). He captured Damascus and established a military presence at the border of Egypt. He deported into the upper Mesopotamian River valley large segments of the Reubenite, Gaddite and Transjordan Manassite populations (1 Chronicles 5:26) and Naphtali and cities in the territories of Issachar, Zebulun and Asher (2 Kings 15:29).

The Assyrian monarch Shalmaneser V initiated and carried out most of the climactic 724-722 B.C. campaign into the remainder of the northern kingdom. Shalmaneser, however, "was deposed soon afterwards by another king, Sargon II. This name, 'True King,' seems to betray the suspect nature of Sargon's claim to the throne...Sargon II moved the Assyrian capital to his own foundation of Khorsabad, built in imitation of Nimrud, and the older city was neglected...Shalmaneser V...did not have time to commemorate his achievements in stone, and it was his successor, Sargon II, who claimed credit for the victory" (Julian Reade, Assyrian Sculpture, pp. 48, 65). Sargon,who finished the war, records on the tablets state he took less than 28,000 people.

From the documents that presumably refer to the Israelites, or for that matter to any other exiles, it is evident that as a rule they did not possess the status of slaves or of an oppressed population. The exiles were first settled in Mesopotamia as land tenants of the king (cf. the words of Rab-Shakeh in II Kings 18:32), while the craftsmen among them were employed in state enterprises. Eventually, some of the exiles achieved economic and social status and even occupied high-ranking positions in the Assyrian administration. They were given the right to agricultural holdings and to observe the customs of their forefathers, and enjoyed a certain measure of internal autonomy. The striking of roots in Mesopotamian society by a large part of the descendants of the Israelite exiles resulted in their eventual absorption into the foreign milieu. Nevertheless, part of the Israelite community undoubtedly preserved its distinct national character and maintained connections with the homeland (cf. II Kings 17:28), later merging with the Judean exile. The return to Zion apparently included remnants of the ten tribes, as alluded to in the Bible (see the prophecies concerning national unification in Ezek. 16:53ff.; 37:16ff.; and cf. Zech. 8:13; 10:6ff.) and as indicated in the genealogical lists of Ezra and Nehemiah (cf., e.g., Ezra 2:2; Neh. 7:7).

There is also the fact that the population suddenly expanded in the Southern Kingdom during the Assyrian war due to "refugees" from the north coming south.

Permalink Reply by Anders Branderud on March 18, 2011 at 3:57pm

Shalom Sandee,

 

It is a good question and I’ll do my best to answer it!

 

The Creator is consistent: Documentation.  His Will is consistent. Thus His Torah must be consistent. [Logical proof of Torah being the Will of the Creator: Link].

 

The Creator outlined directives to Adam and Khava [“Eve”], but this didn’t imply that the rest of mankind weren’t obligated to keep those directives. The Creator outlined directives to the descendants of Adam and Khava, including Noakh, but this didn’t mean that the rest of mankind weren’t obligated to keep those directives. To say otherwise would be an assumption; and the burden of proof is on the person making an assumption.

 

“Genealogically, after Noakh, ha-Sheim selected and nurtured the root of a family tree, Avrâhâm, a family trunk from that tree, Yitzkhaq [“Isac”], a family branch from that trunk, Ya’aqov-Yisrâeil, and a Neitzër from that branch of the family, Dâwid, representative of the Mâshiakh [0b]) – each subbranch identified with a pact. (..)

 

Humankind is responsible, and held accountable, to keep all of ha-Sheim‘s requirements as they are revealed at the time. No person can reject ha-Sheim‘s revealed requirements simply because he finds earlier requirements more appealing, any more than those after Noakh can satisfy ha-Sheim be keeping His pact with Âdâm.

 

The logical conclusion of preferring an earlier pact would yield a group calling themselves B^’nei-Adâm [”Sons of Adam”] dancing around naked in a park they name Garden of Eden and playing with snakes – not very far-fetched considering the bizarre cults that arise periodically. However, Gan Eidën was irrevocably closed, just as each succeeding pact since has been closed by its subsequent pact.

 

Yet, what ha-Sheim revealed to the people of Israel on Mount Sinai, like all of the earlier pacts, was His plan and expectation for all humankind – not exclusively for Jews – from the time He revealed it. Unfortunately, for goyim [1], they all rejected that pact and have since been raised in that rejection. Only Israel accepted the pact. Therefore, only Israel reaps its rewards.

 

The notion that “the Creator requires only the Jews to keep Torâhaccording to Halakhah” is no more valid than someone in the time of Noakh claiming ‘ha-Sheimrequired only Noakh to keep the ‘Seven laws of Noah’.’ They drowned! “ [Quote from “Atonement in the Biblical New Covenant’. Avaiable on Schueller House.]

 

D’varim ['Deuteronomy'] 6:4-9, 11:13f, chapter 26 and onwards, wa-Yiqra ['Leviticus'] 5:14-20 [nephesh - speaking of every individual], Yekhezeqeil ['Ezekiel'] chapter 18 and many more verses in Hebrew outlines what the Creator requires of us in order for us to receive His forgiveness, which is necessary to enter into ha olam haba – the Realm of Heavens. No man has the authority to change what haSheim has outlined in His Torah – see D’varim 4:2 and 13:1-6.

 

Yeshayahu – ‘Isaiah’ - 66:14 and forward reads that the Creator will punish goyim [peoples] whom eat swine and mouse. 

 

Doing ones utmost to love haSheim with all of ones heart, psyche and very all is immensely – which necessitates observing His mitzwot as outlined in D’varim 6:4-9 – is immensely meaningful; and I highly recommend it!!!

 

Your thoughts?

 

Anders Branderud