Am I anti-Jewish?

Comment

Comment by Tom Moniz on December 8, 2010 at 6:12pm

Hello Sandra,

To be honest, the more I think about it I don't know how fruitful it would be. Most people simply point to the supposed lineage as written in the Writings and claim it is the word of God. I have come to see it differently and in contradiction to what Torah and the Prophets show.

There is another thing you might want to take into consideration, and that is how the lineage in Chronicles claims Dawid as the 7th son of Jesse, whereas Samuel shows him as the 8th. Another error that many have spurious explanations for. How can one argue against such things?

Yah's blessings to you too,

Tom

Comment by Tom Moniz on December 7, 2010 at 5:37pm

Hello Sandra,

The Hebrew word translated Ephrathite and Ephramite is Strongs #672 and is spelled Alef, Pey, Reysh, Tav, Yud. It is used only 5 times in Tanakh.

Its first and defining usage is clearly speaking of Ephramites:

Jud 12:5 And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay;


2nd usage, Dawid's ancestry:

Ru 1: 2 And the name of the man was Elimelech, and the name of his wife Naomi, and the name of his two sons Mahlon and Chilion, Ephrathites of Bethlehemjudah. And they came into the country of Moab, and continued there.


3rd usage, the prophet Shemuel's parents who were from Mt Ephraim (not Ephratah):

1Sam 1:1 Now there was a certain man of Ramathaimzophim, of mount Ephraim, and his name was Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephrathite:


4th usage, Yeshy:

1Sam 17:12 Now David was the son of that Ephrathite of Bethlehemjudah, whose name was Jesse; and he had eight sons: and the man went among men for an old man in the days of Saul.


And last usage, Jeroboam, who also wasn't from Ephratah:

1KI 11:26 And Jeroboam the son of Nebat, an Ephrathite of Zereda, Solomon's servant, whose mother's name was Zeruah, a widow woman, even he lifted up his hand against the king.


My question is, why should I come to the conclusion that only the references concerning Dawid has something to do with a person living in Ephrath? Why would Shemuel tell us only where Dawid was from and not his lineage? This seems quite spurious to me.

Torah tells me that Yaqob chose Yoseph to be the head of the tribes, and to receive the birthright. I can see no reason to not honor his decision.

Although Yehudah as a tribe has been the most faithful over the millenia, the individual head is still Yoseph. When the tribes went into the land, it was Yehoshua ben Nun (Yoseph) who was the individual head, with Yehudah as the tribe following closely at his heels. When Yoseph stood before his brothers, testing whether they would honor their father by bringing Benyamin back, it was Yehudah who stepped forward.

For me, the pattern laid out in Torah, and carried thru into the Prophets is clear. Yoseph is head, Benyamin is used as a pawn to test the brothers faithfulness (Benyamin and his descendant; king Shaul/Sheol), and Yehudah is the faithful tribe who honors and rallies around Dawid, the Yosephite head.

The book of Chronicles is in the category of the Writings, not Prophets, not Torah. It was written after the Babylonian captivity, and as far as I am concerned, revisionist history when it comes to the geneology of Dawid. I personally cannot let it overturn what Torah and the Early Prophets establish.

Ruth, which is also in the Writings category is different though, imo. Ruth seems to fit quite well where it is in the Christian bible, between Judges and Samuel. It rings true to me, and seems to have the same author as Samuel. So the question for me is, why is it categorized as a Writing? Could it be because they know that the end was tampered with where the supposed geneology of Dawid may have been a later addition? Ruth seems to end quite well at verse 17:

Ru 4:16 And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.
17 And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi; and they called his name Obed: he is the father of Jesse, the father of David.


There is much more to this too, but let me leave it at that for now. Maybe I should start a separate discussion on the Discussions page concerning Dawid's lineage?

Sincerely,
Tom

Comment by Tom Moniz on December 6, 2010 at 5:53pm

Thanks Ted and Sandra.

I was aware of Ephrath, wife of Caleb, but as Sandra points out, Dawid is not a decendant of his and as we know, lineage is not determined by the woman.

Actually, to be technical, although Boaz did perform the levirate, Dawid would be in the line of Elimelech, for Boaz was merely raising up seed for him.

Concerning Jesse being an Ephramite from Bethlehem Judah, there is a Bethlehem in Zebulun also, so that is probably why Samuel makes the distinction that he is speaking of the Bethlehem which was in the tribal region of Judah, not the one in Zebulun.

We also see another Ephramite, the later king of the Northern tribes when they were split:

1Ki 11:26 And Jeroboam the son of Nebat, an Ephrathite of Zereda, Solomon's servant, whose mother's name was Zeruah, a widow woman, even he lifted up his hand against the king.

By the same reasoning concerning Dawid, should one believe that Jeroboam was of the tribe of Zereda and that he lived in Ephrath? I think not. As I see it, he, like Dawid and Solomon, were of the same royal line decended from the tribe of the birthright, the tribe of Yoseph thru Ephraim.

Sincerely,
Tom

Comment by Ted Walther on December 6, 2010 at 3:10am

Thanks for the additional information Sandra.

Comment by Ted Walther on December 5, 2010 at 3:13pm

1 Chronicles 2:50 These were the sons of Caleb the son of Hur, the firstborn of Ephratah;
Shobal the father of Kirjathjearim,

1 Chronicles 4:4 And Penuel the father of Gedor, and Ezer the father of Hushah. These are
the sons of Hur, the firstborn of Ephratah, the father of Bethlehem.

From these scriptures we see that Ephratah was the son of Hur, and Ephratah was the father of Bethlehem.

Also, looking in Genesis, we see that Bethlehem was originally named Ephrath, in Canaanite times.

Genesis 35:19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is
Bethlehem.

Genesis 48:7 And as for me, when I came from Padan, Rachel died by me in the land of
Canaan in the way, when yet there was but a little way to come unto Ephrath:
and I buried her there in the way of Ephrath; the same is Bethlehem.

Comment by Tom Moniz on December 5, 2010 at 7:32am

Thank you Nan. For the record, I didn't feel anyone was being harsh with me :-)

Ted, I too am interested in your findings.

Comment by Nan Griffiths on December 4, 2010 at 9:19pm

Hi Tom,

I was on the chat today and I don't think that you are anti-Jewish. I think the correct question would be, did WE make you feel like you were anti-Jewish? I think that the J- man is often times a very sensitive subject for some, especially those who have rejected him as G-d and savior. I hope that we were not to harsh with you and apologize. We must remember that we all do not share the same views and tolerate one another in love and respect. It was good to have you on the chat today Tom.
Shalom,

Nan

Comment by Ted Walther on December 4, 2010 at 6:00pm

Ephraim son of Joseph was not the only Ephraim in Scripture; there was also an Ephraim who was the son of Judah. I too saw the evidence that Dawid was an "Ephraimite", and it took 2 years before I stumbled across the linking scriptures that showed he was really of Judah.